doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Gun Auction in December 2008

The dust has settled after the Charlton Hall auction in South Carolina and the decision to replicate the event next year in December has been confirmed.

Charlton Hall have asked me to act as a consultant and help with valuations and collections of firearms in the UK again. They have also asked me to come over to Columbia in June or July to give a talk and hold an open 'free valuataion and appraisal' day for anyone who wants to bring in a British gun - either with a mind to consigning for the sale or just out of curiosity.

For consigned guns, Charlton Hall are offering to pay 40% of the agreed low estimate on any guns taken in as a cash-up-front payment. The balance of the achieved price to be payed after the sale, as usual.

The buyer's commission charged will be 15%, as opposed to 20% by most London auctioneers and 25% by Christies. Once VAT has been paid, the figure is more like 22% and 27% on each London sale.

The idea is to have an auction in the US that is like a standard British gun auction. There will be guns of all qualities and conditions across the price spectrum but all the guns offered will have barrels that measure 'in-proof' unless described as 'stock-action and forend' only.

Getting such a venture moving and gaining momentum is a difficult task and will take time. It needs to establish itself as a 'must-go' venue for the gun dealers and collectors within a day's travel, as well as local enthusiasts.

To make it worth the trip, they will need to collect a lot of guns and accessories. They are starting now and intend to have around 300 guns plus accessories catalogued by September 1st in order that buyers can see, consider and ask for reports on all the lots well in advance. They also plan to have a fully illustrated and photographed on-line catalogue and on-line bidding facility.

I think this is a brave and useful ambition and I wish them well with it. The attendance and interest levels of their first sale were indicative of a huge well of local enthusiasm and some people had travelled over 1000 miles to attend.

They now need to make sure they can delver a great sale next year.

Dig, Congratulations! God willing and the creek don't rise, I'll be there in June and again for the Auction in December.

Merry Christmas!

I could not make it this year due to hectic work schedule, but will try hard to make arrangements for next year. I still need 8+lb 12ga duckling getter capable of handling 1&3/8oz of Gamebore Bismuth or Kent TM. I will be just another bright-eyed young man looking for my first: Greener, Tolley, Cashmore.......,Bland,.... "fowler". English guns are like gourmet chocs one is never quite sure what they're going to find. Looking forward to next years event amigos!

Dig:

I think one on the big problems that you will need to overcome is this. When you are bringing a gun from England to here, the man or company in the UK has a reserve in mind, probably in pounds. Because our dollar is weak against the pound when you convert the reserve in pounds to dollars, the gun then has a too high reserve, and like this auction it does not sell. I have imported many guns in the past from UK and Italy. But with the dollar/pound, dollar/Euro, conversion it makes it rough.

Also, right now the English market is doing pretty well on better grade English guns, I know personally that some of the well known high grade English dealers are buyer guns in US and taking them back to England for resale. This is of course the dollar is weak against the pound.

John Boyd
Quality Arms

John

You make a good point - the pound/dollar conversion is not helping much! However, every London auction I go to I buy for American clients or advise Americans who by there themselves. I also sell a lot of guns to American clients.

Americans are still buying guns at British auctions, despite the conversion rate.

I also hope we can gather plenty of lots in the USA - then American collectors and gun dealers can buy them without worrying about the exchange rate and perhaps some will be bought by Brits and re-patriated. Afterall, the Brits (both Trade and Private) who buy in London auctions don't worry about the exchange rate for home consumption.

Also, guns coming back from the USA for re-sale in London auctions attract VAT of 17% on top of commission at £20% and VAT on commission at 17%.

That makes 40% of the London sale of the gun gone in charges - you sell your re-import in the UK and the buyer bids £1000; you get £850, the buyer pays £1,400.

That gives us some margin to play with.

There are plenty of British guns in the USA and we so, as I say hope to collect a good deal of those. We will also sell American guns, collected 'in-country'.

BTW, I have just taken in a Purdey bar-in-wood 20-bore hammer gun. I bet it sells to an American collector.

I'd hope to come back next year to get a fowler. I thought this years sale was a great first effort.

If you go back in June, I'd advise on purchasing a seersucker suit. SC is damn hot in the summer!

Dig: I had lunch with Ron today & we kicked around some ideas on ways to make next years sale even better. Some of the things we discussed were: More advertising in more publications like DGJ, Shooting Sportsman, Gun List, Sporting Classics, etc. as well as gun & shooting periodicals in the U.K.

Having all the guns here in time to take all measurements for inclusion in the catalogues. Determining the shootability of each gun being offered with respect to appropriate loads.

Possibly having a sporting clays event in the week before the auction with the proceeds going to "Make a Wish" or the "Children's Miracle Network". The guns being offered would be available to shoot in this event with the appropriate ammunition. I believe that we can easily secure local sponsership

Better close up photography with more pictures of each gun showing proof marks, chamber size, etc.

Soliciting ideas from those who participated in this year's event and also those who didn't on how to make each year's event better & better.

All in all everyone that I spoke to who was present at this year's auction thought it was great especially for a first-time-out. As I watched you I was amazed by your depth of knowledge and how attentive you were to each person's questions. Your presence certainly added that necessary ingredient to make this event stand out over others that I have attended. I, for one, am looking forward with great anticipation to your return next year.

Best Regards, George

Hi Dig, Please tell a bit more about the Purdey 20 bore. How many do you think were made in 20 bore? My guess would 100 to 1 with 12 bores, so maybe 25 to 30 20's
All the best, Mal

I would think that number would be about right. This one was made in 1880 for Lord Halstead. I have been to Purdey's to check the dimension book entry for it.

It has 28" damascus barrels, and a bar-in-wood action. The stock is nicely figured but only 13 3/4". However, it has been cut-down for a child in the past and the original off-cut was still in the case. I'll re-fit it, the join will be pretty much invisible and take it out to 14 1/2".

The chap I got it from has kept the case! He wants to sell that separately and make few extra pounds!!!

The locks retain a lot of their original colour and the furniture has been re-blued in the past. The barrels are a bit pitted and I'm measuting the walls this evening to see how much meat we have to play with. I think they will be fine.

It is in proof but I would like to clean the bores up a little.

The operation is by top-lever and the locks are bar-action. The action face is pretty clean apart from some powder burn around the striker holes. Engraving is fine rose and scroll of typical Purdey style.

I'm pleased with it, it was a good find. Gavin Gardiner sold one with a thumb lever for £9000 plus commission this month! Bonham's sold one like mine in the summer for £6,800 plus commission and that had extremely thin barrels.

Thanks Gerorgwe for the insights. I'm sure it will be much slicker next time in Columbia.

I guess you will have to give the seller his pound of flesh! The original case has to be well worth whatever he wants. I have a pair made in 1878 30 1/2 inch barrels, 14 5/8 LOP. Lovely guns!
Good luck in your measurements.
All the best, Mal