doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com book reccomendations for training upland dogs?

Thank you very much to everyone who replied to my English Setter thread. The info was very helpful!

OK, so now my next question along the same lines-

What books do you reccomend for a person who is getting his first upland dog?

I live in rural northern MN and literally have grouse in the yard, and woodcock too on occassion. I would also like to make a pheasant hunt with friends every 2-3 years. I would like to get and train a dog to hunt in these situations.He needs to hunt semi-close and reasonably slow, due to health problems.

I have owned a couple of retrievers many years ago, as well as many, many, many hounds. The retrievers required a lot of training work on my part, whereas with the hounds I could just teach them one or two things NOT to do. But many of them were too hard headed to learn anything at all.

What books should I read on training a setter for upland hunting?

Thanks!

Marc, there are as many books on training as there are on guns. I think that you already have the knowledge to train a setter. Hounds were bred for one thing, their noses, not much disipline. Setters on the other hand should be a lot easier to train. The first few months if you get a puppy, should be on behavior, getting to know his name, coming to you when called, obediance type things. When he gets to listen to you, associate him with people, other dogs (that you know are friendly). By the time he is near 4 months if you have the room, build a quail pen (I will send you pics if you wish) and let him get associated with them. Let one out and see what he does, you don't want a bigger bird flushing in front of him and scaring him. Let him walk around the pen and see what he does. Also at 4 months or so you can start working him on a electronics collar, not so much as to discipline him but to assure him with low stimulation that he is doing what you want him to do. Also with gentle voice commands.
I don't know what the other e-collars give you but the Sportdog one gives you a pamphlet on how and when to use the collar.
It's light and the receiver is small enough not to be cumbersome.
I started using a whistle when mine was young. One blast and he looks and as if he is asking "what now", then I give him the command to come or change direction. You get him to respond to the whistle or voice command by blowing or commanding then by low stimulation on the collar. After a few times you won't need the collar, he/she will know what you want.
At this age of 4 months, you should know what he is capable of doing, you can't teach him to hunt, you can only refine what he has bred into him. Now you can look and get maybe a book on refining his levels of skill and yours.
And by all means please keep him looking like a setter with the tail out straight, not up in the air like some pointer. A lot will disagree, but that is a setter.
This is my opinion Marc, everybody will tell you a different way. Remember also that most trainers are training more than one dog at a time, so how much time are they devoting to your dog.
Getting one from a reputable breeder with a good 7-9 lineages back with top dogs and he/she will train themself. You are only going to help refine him.

"Gun Dog" by Richard A. Wolters available at Barnes & Noble books.

Marc,
There are a number of very good books and videos out there.
"Bird Dog" Ben O. Williams
"Wing and Shot" Robert Wehle
"Training Pointing Dogs" Paul Long
"Best Way to Train your Gun Dog" Bill Tarrant/ Delmar Smith
"Gun Dog" Richard Wolters
There are as many "methods as writers. I have all of these books and more. I believe if you read a number of different books it will help you to gain your own philosiphy on what works for you and your dog.
I personally like Ben O. Williams method, which is get your dog on as many "wild" birds as possible. That said we don't all have access to as many wild birds as Ben does. I do believe the more time you spend the more you will enjoy your dog.
We all have very different expectations and thoughts about what a "finished dog is. I don't trial,I hunt wild birds, but my dogs do come from trial stock. My dogs will relocate on their own some if a covey is moving. It let's me get into range without the birds running away.(chukar,Gambel quail,etc)
If you hunt Ruffed grouse you won't want a dog that will move as Ruffs tend to be flighty.
Get your dog, read some, talk to local "dog men" and find out why they do what they do.
You will have a hard time screwing up your dog unless you shoot over it to early, are too hard handed, or expect to much to soon and loose patience.
Dogs are individuals just like we are. Some are quicker, some slower. Most are average-- a very few are spectacular, a few are slow witted.
Your dog will teach you what works. You're not there to teach the dog how to hunt, he/she will learn that instinctively. You want to teach the dog how to hunt "for you" and gt it into situation at the proper time to know well what a bird looks and smells like, and to learn to love it. I find that training dogs is satisfying just as tying your own flies, reloading shells, building decoys,etc.
Put some effort into finding proven methods and you will find it a very rewarding experience!
Shoot a double gun of your choosing over your dog.

Marc,

I have trained all of my Setters using Gundog as reference. You will not be disapointed with the results.

Bill

Marc,

I am not going to recommned a book. Rather that you attend a 4 day seminar with George Hickox. You and your dog, along with others will be present. George will teach you how to train your dog. I have done this in a past and may well do it again. The 4 day session is not cheap. It is intensive!

http://www.georgehickox.com/dog-training-school-schedule.php

He also sells a set of DVD's that you may find worthwhile.

http://www.georgehickox.com/dog-training-aids.php

He used to do one in Green Bay and another here near Kankakee. However, his local contacts in both cases have retired. There is one in St. Louis, this coming April. I have seen dogs that held AKC Master Hunter titles, dogs several years old and pups under 6 months at his training sessions.

Pete

JDW-

I tried to send you a PM a couple of days ago regarding the quail pen. I am guessing the PM still is hit or miss, as others said they tried to PM me but I had none. Anyway, please email me at mstokeld@hotmail.com . I would love to hear about your quail pen.

Thanks!

Marc, sent you an email. My PM doesn't seem to be working either.

'Gundog Sense and Sensability' by Wilson Stevens.

I second HOmeless Joe's recommendatin - "Gundog" by Richard Wolters. I am an amatuer training my own dogs and I could understand the instructions and pictures and got good results.

My wife and I sold three litters of French Britany puppies and included a Gundog and a "Puppies for Dummies" with each puppy. We were buying both books used for $5 or $6 on the internet. The "Puppies for Dummies" is great for house breaking and trick training and general understanding of the pup.

Having said all that I did have a trainer whoa break a hard headed alpha male and another force break him to retrieve. The other three I mistrained all by myself.

Best,

Mike