doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Shotgun fit

Took my son-in-law hunting for ruffed grouse this week-end. I was able to shoot my british double for the first time. The barrels are a little long, but I will get used to it. There were not too many birds around but we managed to kick up a few.
Previously I had introduced him to shooting by having an afternoon of clay pigeon practise. He did not have much success, but I thought it was just a matter putting a little more time into it. I talked with him about the sequence of events in shooting at a bird in the wild- at least how I approach it. He missed a fairly easy shot, so we were talking about that etc. When he shouldered his gun, (an old but pristine Model 12 16 gauge) I noticed how awkward it looked in his hands. I have always thought this to be a very shooter friendly gun. I had him try my double - a Bland double, and that wasn't any better. He kind of looked like he was standing at firing line , shooting silhouettes. I tried to correct his posture a bit, but he had trouble with comb height and the bottom of the butt stock was the only contact on his shoulder- very high.
I would like to help him out but don't know how to proceed. Does he just need to get some professional shooting instruction, or is he going to need a fitted gun? Anybody in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area you would recommend who could help him?
thanks, Gary

First he needs to learn how to properly mount the gun. THEN and only then, will he be ready to be fitted. Fitting a gun to a newbie who mounts it differently each time would be like having a suit tailored to someone whose weight fluctuates drastically from week to week. Get him some instruction on proper mounting. You can get this from a good book, if you understand the principles yourself.

Get a copy of Yardley's book on gunfitting. That will help you all understand the process.

I'd vote for a lesson right off the bat - before any bad habits become "his style."

Fieldsport in Traverse City, MI has instruction and fitting. Not sure how close you are to them. http://www.fieldsportltd.com/

Might as well get the basics down with instruction. Improvement comes faster that way. Recall a new shooter getting some help from the regulars. He had been out a few times before anyone asked him to do an exercise to determine master eye. He is right handed with left dominant eye. Could have progressed faster if the guys had checked that first. An instructor would have got that right away, I would hope.

I'm in agreement with those above who recommend a shooting lesson or a few first. Assuming he's about average in orthopedic construction, an about average gun should be somewhat suitable for at least a session or two. But leave that to the professional.

I've watched some shooters who looked very average, make mounting a gun into a contortionist act. I've tried to intervene and correct the problem and couldn't seem to help. After several years of watching one of these shooters mount a gun ackwardly, I started to see a shift to a more natural shooting style. A few lessons likely would have prevented this early on.

A shooting lesson will be in order. A neutral voice will "correct" aiming, rifle stature, etc. And, this same voice will figure out how to throw some targets that the newbie will hit once eye dominance and so on are sorted in a practicable mount. It is a great short-cut for an adult just taking up shotgun shooting. Should get all of the safety questions out of the way expeditiously too. Check a Black's Wing and Clay or let us know more location details for resources close to you.

God only knows how most people learn wingshooting. Hopefully they start very young and have the help of someone with suitable fundamentals. I was lucky in that my father had some instructing experience, and that I got the opportunity to shoot frequently and early with others. A lot of people become capable of shooting fairly well without the foggiest notion why or how. So good instruction is the way.

I will send you a PM and put you onto a few fellows in the Twin Cities area that can help. At least two are professional wingshooting instructors and have the training and experience, and another is a gunsmith specializing in stock work for wingshooters.

Traveling to a famous shooting instructor will cost a lot of dough and not give much for long term results if your time with him/her is limited. You want some kind of a simple beginning and a way to groove a fundamentally OK mount before you go to somebody like the fellows at Fieldsport in Traverse City, etc. They are good, really good, but you can get yourself to a decent level cheaper, and probably should before you can understand what they can teach.

I recommend local instruction and use of a skeet field, so the student can go back and practice, involving the instructor occasionally, and possibly finding others with which to shoot and thereby learn (everybody learns in different ways). I strongly recommend avoiding trap if you intend to shoot game, especially upland game such as you describe. Trap encourages aiming behavior rather than gun mounting, moving and pointing. I'd say get a good lesson (about $50 around here), then practice for a few sessions on a skeet field -- get cheap shells, shoot a lot and shoot frequently. Then go back to the instructor for a check. Forget about fit for now. Almost any decent modern gun is close enough to start with unless the student is physically shaped very much away from average. Women are a different fit story. Posture is usually the problem behind gun mounting, and it is a much higher priority to correct, than fit. Most of us never shoot a gun fitted to us, but can learn to shoot very well.

The student should tell the instructor his objective. In your son-in-law's case, it sounds like he wants to shoot game - to hunt. That way the instructor can avoid wasting time on the nuances of a game like skeet, which is a mounted gun sport nowadays. If you are trying to create a decent mount a swing for field use, you are not interested in skeet per se. Make sure your instructor knows that. The reason to use a skeet field and a skeet instructor is because of the variety of shots similar to field circumstances, and a way to graduate from a little gun movement to a lot. Sporting clays is also a possibility, but not a good place to start, I think, because deceptiveness is so much a part of the course design. The skeet field is also very compact and the instructor can set up a shot example quickly -- more instruction in a short time, and more repetition. Sporting clays (gun down) is an excellent practice exercise for hunting to which to graduate once you get most of the skeet shots down (gun down). I do not recommend going to trap unless you are already fundamentally sound, or don't ever care to be. If you shoot trap for hunting practice, shoot it gun down, at least off your shoulder, so you can pick up the target witout a gun in the picture, and exercise a mount and swing.

Best Wishes,
Tony Lowe

Depending on how he is trying to mount the gun it could be a master eye issue. It is pretty easy to spot. Usually, the shooter will mount the gun and turn their head so that the outside eye is higher than the one behind the barrel. Sometimes it is different. So, go throught the master eye check. If he has an offside master eye, switch him over to the off shoulder now.

Second, I have taught some real bad shooters of shotguns to be very good shots. Many years ago, I learned primarily by chance, that the best way to go is by starting them with a .22 or pellet gun. And, let them shoot it ALOT. And, I mean ALOT. That will teach them to line up a gun and shoot it properly to hit a target. Make it fun. Shooting tin cans or plastic drink bottles with a .22 can be a hoot. They can start with a rest of some kind. Even sitting with some kind of bench rest to start. When that gets too easy then they will progress to standing. When they are making tin cans dance around at about 30-40 yards with a .22 the transition to a shotgun is easy.

And, yes I also agree with all the above about original shooting lessons. But, the right position and all will be MUCH easier shooting a simple little .22 than a shotgun. For a non-shooter, each shot with a shotgun is an event.

Regards, Jake

A new shooter, weight on back foot, leaning back as if taking a high shot, although the shot is right in front, and tilting his head awkwardly to see down the rib is not unusual. The toe is going to jab his shoulder which will not slow the gun much, and the comb is going to hit his face. He is trying to save himself, and is going to clobber himself with his method.

A video from OSP spent a good amount of time on basics. Another from Michael Yardley does this, too - 'Positive Shooting' I think it is called.

If you like to read and can learn that way, it is hard to beat Michael Yardley's books on instruction and fit, as others have pointed out. Very few others are as clear and useful.