doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Food for thought . . . .

Especially if it is cold.

Best,
Ted[/quote]

“If Minnasota is cold in the winter”? 😂

We haven’t had any record breaking stuff lately, but, when it is below zero, ammunition performance drops off. You can literally hear the difference.

Of course, I’m not as driven as I once was to hunt in the cold, but, I do some every year.

Within the current dog’s lifetime, we did see -47 for a few days. No wind, you don’t get wind at that temp, no hunting, either, but, we got our walk in. Yes, that is ice on our faces.





Best,
Ted

Shooting clays is different than hunting. One of my favorite guns is a 20 ga sxs that weighs about 6lbs 4 oz. I have shot 7/8 and even some 1 oz hunting loads after pheasant and not noticed recoil, but if I shoot it at clays I use 3/4 oz because I have found that if I use 7/8 loads after about 75 I am noticing the recoil and getting tired. Part of this is being old.

Since I been shooting sxs for game about 50yr I don't think I've ever put more than an ounce of shot through a 12/16/20 ga. My go-to for waterfowl is an ounce of bismuth 5s and 7/8 oz of ITX 6s. Pheasants and.grouse.1oz B&P High Pheasant 6s or my waterfowl loads on lead restricted areas. Dove and quail get my 7/8oz claybird load of 8s that I use for SC, trap and skeet. When I was shooting for hunt test was my heaviest load as the club supplied RM or Win trap 7.5s.

Never feel under gunned and never left very many cripples in the field. I hunt mainly Wa, MT SD WI and MN while I was hunting a lot, now it is different ves, quail and waterfowl in NM and AZ

Stan, recoil is not a factor with my 1/2 ounce shot load, in my .410. I could even go up to those super magnum 11/16 - 3/4 ounce loads you favor for later dove. Too many seem to think extra shot, or extra velocity will cover up lack of skill or just bad shots. Judge ranges better, practice shooting realistic targets instead of unrealistic easy birds, wait until birds are as near to the shooter as possible before moving your gun and shooter outcomes will drastically improve. It is the Indian not the bow or arrow.

I kill 100 plus dove every year with a 1/2 shot, that chronographs at 1260 fps. I have loads which top 1300+ fps, but they do not pattern as well as my preferred load of 1260 fps. You don't need more shot, or higher velocity to kill birds. I shoot a model 42, full choke .410, with 2 1/2" shells. I always make sure I know the real ranges, when ever possible when hunting. Dove are for the most part shot from a static position. I walk off my personal known limit of ability at 33 yards, from the shooting position, or use a bow hunters range finder if you have one. Limit shots to only birds within that area and your success rate will go up with whatever loads you use. Hope your season is full of great days in the field with friends and family.

I remember in the 80's there was a lot of work put into international trap loads by Ballistic Research. I loaded a lot of their loads with, I believe, their International Target Driver wads. I shot for a couple of years with 7/8 oz loads at around 1400 fps. My guns all patterned them extremel well. Recoil was very mild even compared to a regular AA target load, much less the handicap loads. A lot of people poo-pooed them until they shot them. The most dramatic effect was the way they shot at increased distances. I have seen the smae thing in 28 ga guns. Until they were unavailable my go to shell was Polywad Gram Crackr. It was a 5/8 oz load of nickel plated 5's loaded with a buffer at a pretty healthy velocity. Recoil was mild and there appeared to be no shot deformation at all. I use a 30" 28 gauge double with cylinder and skeet for quail and doves. With these loads I can make consistent clean hits and kills at 40 - 45 yds. With quail I use a spreader in the first barrel on a covey rise and a Gram Crakr in the second barrel to allow the birds to settle on a flight path before the second shot. Doubles are pretty to accomplish with this combo.

I think the general rule I have is to use as light a lead charge as possible that achieves an effective pattern at the target distance and then drive them to a maximum velocity that doesn't disrupt the pattern. Those two rules may not seem compatible, but if you start with the minimum charge that patterns effectively at the target distance, the combination of this and the acceptable max velocity you will end up with a comfortable load to shoot that operates at low pressure level but kills with authority. The caveat is that the load development depends on powder, wad, shot(size, charge, type) and choke. This requires quite a lot of development. However, when you find one that does all you want it is pretty magical thing to shoot.

What would happen if the loads were built the same quality components but lower velocity?
This is not rhetorical, I would like to know if you tried that?

In my youth I killed hundreds of ducks with my 28 gauge Model 12 Skeet gun, using one ounce factory loads in 5's & 6's hunting a creek under 25 yards wide. Those loads were traveling about 1100-1125 fps. I have tried reloading them with powder available at that time and 1125 is about the maximum I could generate. Now with newer powders, I am sure 1200 fps is obtainable these days. But slow is more than capable of working under the right circumstances. Pattern the load and figure out how far it will work properly. You are not going to kill birds well at extended ranges, like 50 yards, using slow loads. Under 35 yards and they will work well i suspect if the shot is large enough to retain good energy.

Jon,

With all due respect I am curious regarding your statement that “you are not going to kill birds at extended ranges using slow loads”

I’m sure you are aware that “fast” loads lose velocity more rapidly than “slow” loads.

My testing at 40-60 yards with a chronograph showed that at 40 yards and beyond a 1220 fps 1 1/4 oz load was so near the velocity of the 1 1/4 1330 fps load that the variations in individual shells more than covered the difference. Statistically the same velocity.

Testing was done with a chronograph set behind a metal plate with a hole cut to let shot pass.

Since most would agree that the more round pellets of the slower loads pattern more uniformly at distance, shorten shot string due to more consistent velocity achieved due to more uniform ballistic shape than deformed pellets of the high velocity loads it would seem that the slower loads would kill better at longer ranges. The only negative would be slightly longer time of flight. Iirc my math indicated that the difference in lead on a crossing bird at 50 yards and would have been in the range of 4-5”. This was not statistically significant considering the pattern spread at these ranges.

The only way a shotshell delivers energy is through uniform patterns and impact speed. Since speed is essentially identical and patterns of slower loads are superior it would seem that the modest loads would kill better.

In a practical application back in the ‘80’s I shot ducks in Argentina. The load was 11/4 oz #5 hard shot at a modest 1200 fps iirc. I shot 250 ducks per day for days. The killing effect of these modest loads at ranges far beyond 60 yards was stunning once you got dialed in.

Shooting so many ducks in a relatively short time span was possibly a better chance to evaluate effectiveness than to shoot hundreds of ducks at a rate of 5-10 per day for years.

Again, with all due respect you might reconsider your thoughts on this. No offense intended.

Serious question... how can a chronograph accurately measure the velocity of a string of shotgun pellets at longer ranges?

My understanding is that the screens detect either the leading edge of the shot cup or the leading edge of the dense shot cluster at closer ranges. But at ranges like 40 yards or more, the cup or wad would have fallen way behind, and the shot cloud would be much more dispersed and elongated. In addition, with the optical sky-screen type of chronograph, both screens would have to consistently pick up the same cluster of pellets as they pass in order to get a true reading.