doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Info on Francotte pigeon? Gun

Just won auction on this one, has 30in barrels both look to be choked full, marked around full in mm. Looks like marked factory 2 3/4 chambers. Gun looked in such good shape I didn’t want to ask any questions. I have developed a love for nice Damascus lately.
Any thoughts on gun and what pressures this one was designed to shoot?

Really pretty gun, I like it!

I've owned several Francottes, one an 1891 Grade 1 damascus. From what I've seen, Francotte 12 ga are chambered for 2-5/8" shells typically from between 1890 and about 1929. I have a 1929 gun with factory marked original 2-3/4" chambers. I had two gunsmiths check out my damascus barrels and then proceeded to shoot low pressure 7/8 and 1 ounce loads (nitro) with no problem. B&P makes a 7/8 ounce load which the factory rep told me was very low pressure ( the factory chart shows 6500). My gun had 30" tubes and still weighed only 6-3/4 pounds.

Thanks. I believe the date on this one is 1897-98 based on other serial numbers I found online. I guess barrels were made just before or at the same time as early nitro powders. Thanks to Doc Hause’s work it looks like shells from that time were 5-8000 psi. Hopefully the bores have been taken care of in the good way. Any other info? Thanks again

Very nice, and remarkable contrast on the 3 Iron Crolle barrels

Dating the proof marks is interesting.
Non Pour Balle appeared pre-1897, then CHOKE next to the bore until 1910
The gun may have been reproved post-1910 with the muzzle constriction of 17.8 = .701 over bore 18.5 = .728. The choke may have been opened as 17.6 would be .693.
It looks to be a non-ejector so should be a No. 1 or 2? I don't know which model has side clips. The Pigeon models were all ejectors.
What is the weight of the gun? If a Featherweight it would be a Special Non-Ejector.
Cornell Pubs has a 1908 VL&D catalog repro
https://cornellpubs.com/product/1150/
Almost all the Francotte imports I've seen do have the chamber length in inches

It does not carry smokeless proof, but that was optional (starting in 1891), came with an additional price, and was often not performed on guns intended for export to the U.S.
It was proved for a max. service load of 1 1/4 oz. / 3 1/4 Dram Eq. (1220 fps). Black powder loads of that period ran about 8500 psi and Bulk Smokeless about 10,500 psi (Same as today's SAAMI max).
1 1/8 oz. 3 Drams Bulk Smokeless was 6000 - 8000 psi.

Certainly the wall thickness should be checked and if adequate, in light of the age of the wood, I'd probably stick to 1 oz. at 1200 fps target loads.

Fantastic pattern welded tubes but the marks are a bit masked by the fine pattern. Whale of a gun with upper & lower scears, sideclips and circular crossbolt coupled with a Doll's Head Extension. But better fotos of the marks may net additional info as during this period the Belgians were changing the Proof Law almost daily as the Germans were forcing tighter constraints on the Liége Mechanics but the Germans just could not get off the Belgian teat for rough bored tubes.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Thanks. What would these marks be?

Difficult to say due to the masking by the pattern, but if you look @ the other tube it looks to be characters surmounted by a crown, like Crown over AF.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I can't contribute to the discussion about proof marks...

...but: Wow! This barrels are gorgeous!

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=642243&page=all
Courtesy of Bob Beach regarding Francotte SN 28032 c. 1900 with Siemens barrels recorded as a Grade No.2 model in 12 gauge, weighing 7 lbs., 6 ounces, with 30 inch barrels and a drop @ heel of 2 and 3/8 inches. The model name No.2 was assigned by VL&D and was not a Francotte model name.
(The gun was likely rebarreled and does not have side clips)

As for the Model No.2, a VL&D catalog describes the gun is as follows:
The Model No.2 is a Hammerless side by side shotgun with an Anson & Deeley style boxlock action, in 12 gauge with Damascus or Siemen-Martin steel barrels, a Quadruple-fast action (double under-bolt, Greener cross-bolt and dolls head extension rib), Purdey style fore-end, checkered sidelock shaped side panels, automatic top safety, Intercepting sears, weighing about 6 ½ pounds with 28 inch barrels and 7 to 8 pounds with 30 inch barrels, all grips with 2 1/4 to 3 inch drops, somewhat finer finish than the grade No. 1. The retail price of the No.2 was $100.00 (1900).

Another No. 2 SN 32095
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ub...p;Board=1&main=45731&type=thread