doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com CC of Modern Guns?

I understand that new guns do not require case hardening like the older steels did. I was wondering if it still adds to surface hardness when done to modern guns like the RBL..? TIA H

This was asked on another board this week and here are portions of 2 of my replies:


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Case colors quickly wear off. It has become a fad in th epast few years to color case everything on a gun. Much of it is a very unsound move from an engineering and safety standpoint just to gain some very fragile colors that will wear away in just a few years of use. Much less durable than even matte hot bluing.

But the case colored steel is more resistant to rust than un-case hardened steel. Even though the colors wear off, the garder surface underneath resits corrosion better than the bare steel. I for one will be glad when this case coloring fad is dead and gone.

I know that a lot of big names case color tool steel and Mauser actions, but that does not make it right. Even as an undergraduate mechanical engineering student, I knew it was not kosher. After i worked a few years I went back to graduate school and really looked into it. After taking several graduate engineering classes in materials, mechanics, and failure/fatigue, I had the nitty gritty detail on why it was a bad thing to do.

I also corresponded whith the man whom I considered to be the "authority" on color case hardening, and he totally agreed. Dr. Oscar Gaddy was an electrical engineer by education, but was a man whose heart was also in color case hardening. He was the only person color case hardening who went beyond experiementing to get the best colors. Oscar spent a great deal of time researching the mechanics of what happened to the steel during case hardening and color case hardening.

I would have to dig out some mechanics, theory of elasticity, inelastic deformation, and soem fatigue textbooks from engineering graduate school to give you exact reason that is is a bad idea to go around color case hardening any and everything. I have posted it here before and gotten hate PM's, but I will post it again. It is an usound engineering and safety move to color case harden Mausers and tool steel. I know people do all the time, but it is still a bad thing to do.

Hell, I used to ride bulls-another unsound thing to do from a safety standpoint. I would tie myself to a bull and then stick sharpened spurs in his side at th esame time someone else hit him in the ass with a hotshot and hape a rope cinched tight around his tool. I would do that, but i will not color case harden a Mauser action under and circumstance. Does that give you an idea of bad I think it is to color case harden anything for looks?

I have had prospects and clients ask me to color case harden Mausers and I tell them it is an unqualified "no."
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I will be happy when this case color fad has passed and folke will look back on with the same disdain with which we now look at white line spacers, ivory stock inlays, and 45° contrasting fore arm tips.

Not only are the colors often gaudy and in artisitic contrast with the rest of the arm, at times they compromise the integrity of the components and even make th earm unsafe to shoot. THis fad cannot pass soon enough for me!!!


OH yeah, to directly answer your question Homer-CC'ing tool steel produces an inferior product and does not make the mechanical properties better. It is being done purely fo rcosmetic reasons, no matter how unsound of anengineering decision it is

SOme steel are incredible when case hardened. If you make an action out of 8620 and case harden it, then that thing is incredibly tough. you can make a Mauser action from 8620 and case harden it and it will be almost impossible to destroy with just a loaded cartridge. Now you can't color case harden it and have the good properties. THe temps requires for maximum strength will not produce the colors.

For a shotgun, 8620 can be color hardened and it sure is not the end of the world. It is not the best product, but it also worlds different from CC'ing 4140 or a similar alloy. Something like 4140, 4340 or anything along those lines should not be case colored.

Also, recasing an old shotgun frame for strictly cosmetic reasons is a bad idea from my point of view. If you have filed it, annealed it, or whatever, then of course it needs to be recased.

"Case color fad has passed...."

I am not sure that an aesthetic and and metal treatment which has endured for more than 150 years on the finest shotguns made in the world constitutes a "fad" in the sense of a white line spacer. It would certainly come as something of a surprise to most of the English makers, current and past. I won't argue the engineering basics of what you have stated other than to note that the vast majority of German produced Mauser actions through the end of WW II were case hardened (vice case colored). I am not sure how taking such an action already designed around case hardening for a custom rifle, and then case coloring changes anything. It has been a technique used by rifle builders in Germany since before WWI, and seen on truly great rifles today coming out of Germany and Austria.

No hate mail Marc. But there are a gazilion "soft" core mauser actions out there either being used or waiting to be used on some truly great rifles. Many will be dressed up with CC. And I just like the way CC looks on a SXS.

I like the case colors on my friends original german made .500 schuler. It looks good and the gun is a delight to shoot. Who would have thought that a 7k ftlb gun could be fun to shoot, but it is! The gun was made in the 20's and the colors are original.
Steve

Thank you Marc

Joe-

It most deifnitely is a fad, and I did not say it passed, as you quoted me, but rather I will be glad when it has passed. You are taking bits of information out of context and using them to make your argument.

The Mausers were not colored cased, they were case hardened at different temps than you need for the colors that are the fad these days. I would like to see the military mausers or commercial Mausers that were color cased from the factory in WW II. TO say soemthing is case hardened does not necesarily mean it was color case hardened. This horse has been severely flogged on this board for quite soem time now.

When you look at the guns and rifles of old, you will not find the clor casing liek you so today. Even 15 years ago you did not find it. I would like to see any exapmples you can produce that show CC'd scope rings, scope bases, grip caps, bolt shrouds, Mauser actions, bottom metal, etc., etc. If it is out there in more than a trivial amount, I have never seen it. The earilliest versions of German rifles did have it, as they were using different steels and cartridges. English single and doubles are also a different horse in a different race.

I also pointed out that some newer steels, such as 8620, are approaching indestructable when case hardened, but as I said in th efirst post-not when COLOR CASE HARDENED. THe temps needed to give the steel its super-strength do not produce the colors which are the fad these days.

And besides, this is not even what the original question is about. He asked about modern steels being CC'd vs. old steel. It has nothing to do with the older English shotguns you mention. I hope this does not seem like picking nits, for it is not. Apples to oranges comparisons. One cannot pick bits of information here and there and assume they transfer to anything else. This is what 97.349% if the gun writers do, and thta is why the magazines of today are nothing compared to what they were 25 years ago.

The colors sure look nice where they belong. But, scope rings? Or, a model 21? No thanks.
Best,
Ted

Marc, when I sent away a near-mint Fox SW immersed for six months in six fathoms of salt water to one of the best gunsmiths in Canada, he asked of my wishes concerning case-coloring. I said the restoration disqualified it as original, to blue the receiver as beautifully as barrels and hardware. He said that's what he would do. The lovely double was always a shooter to me. Its history now makes it more valuable than a collector's piece and I've willed it to my nephew who was with me when we capsized.

Thanks for the response Marc, and I truly am not trying to be argumentative. I stand in awe of your engineering credentials. This, however, is not just a question of the practical application of heat. It is also one about the appreciation of the gun as art.

With regard to your second note, what you describe is why I used the terms case hardened vice case colored in describing mausers actions. I, too, would be more than a little surprised to see a military mauser case colored in it's military livery. But again, that is not what I said. What I did note is that many of those case hardened actions have been further case colored by some of the finest rifle makers in Germany and Austria for a century and used as the basis for some of the finest rifles ever built. You can still order one today.

And with regard to the quote, the point I was making was with regard to your use of the term "fad". A newly ordered, bespoke Holland or Purdey will arive at your door in 24 months or so with muted, lovely case colors just like your grandfather could have ordered it with the exception of that more modern steel to which you refer. Whatever the appreciation of case colors is, it is hardly a "fad".

Whether case coloring is necessary is a very different subject. What I do doubt is whether the work of say Turnbull is in anyway destructive to a modern steel. Of course not. And if a customer prefers that traditional look, or wishes to restore an older arm, then why not? In that case, it really is just an issue of taste rather than mechanics. And Marc, you absolutely don't have to appreciate either the redunduncy of case coloring a case hardened steel, or the appearance of case colors themselves. I am one of those who do.

Whether appreciated or not, I do know those colors have been around an awful long time, and suspect they will for a long, long time to come.

Thank you Joe that was very well stated. I'm a traditionalist and much prefer color case harding where it was the original treatment. But hey if a guy wants to paint his gun in gold metalflake I don't care. Its his gun and he will have to live with the end result.

I am waiting for a trained metalurgist, preferably one with a Doctorate in the field to show up on this board and tell us exactly why 4140 etc should not be color cased.