doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com AGC Knickerbocker 12ga High condition

Just picked up an American Gun Co. Knickerbocker 12 ga sidelock in unusually high condition, 85% bluing and case colors, bores clean and unpitted, no dents, cracks etc. Couple of screw heads a little buggered on the right lock plate, some surface freckling, wood finish gone dull on the butt, the rest is fine. 14 1/2 x 1 1/2 x 2 3/4 with a 2 1/2 inch down pitch, so it fits well. I have read every prior thread I could on this gun, so feel well grounded in its history, etc. My question is twofold. One, there is not a single mark on the fluid steel barrels other than the number 7 stamped on the bottom of the lug. Nothing. Second, the gun has 2 1/2 inch chambers and normal forcing cones leading into bores that mic .710 R and .712 L on my Skeets gauge all the way down to the muzzle at 29 5/8" from the breech. Pure cylinder, and a reduced cylinder at that. I know, I know, they must have been cut and the chokes cut off, but truly they dont appear to have been cut--barrels touch and keels are intact. Plus, that wouldn't explain the unusually undersized bore diameter--it's darn near a 13 gauge. A Walker gauge fits right in the chamber, as do 12 ga snap caps. Anybody have any similar experience with a twenty thousandths undersized bore? I am baffled. The only thought I had was that some Crescent barrel borer thought that since his likely customers in 1905 would get rusty pitted bores very quickly, he would leave them an extra 10 thousandths or so to ream the pits out. Or, he got tired at the end of the day and didnt want to make another pass through the borer. No, I have not measured the wall thickness with my Manson gauge, but at the muzzle they are at least .040 with no constriction. I would post pictures, but don't maintain a cloud photo site anymore, and can't post pics here directly from my hard drive. I would appreciate any thoughts you guys might have. Thanks.

Mike

British 12 bores in the 19th century were often made with 13 bore or 13/1 bore barrels.

Your barrel length equates to exactly 75 centimetres, so perhaps they were made in Belgium originally before being proofed.

I have a Jeffery hammer gun with 30" barrels and proofed as a 13/1 bore. In the catalogue it is listed as the Farmer's Gun, so with thicker barrels to avoid dents. How much do your barrels weigh? The Jeffery weighs 1540 grams (53 7/8 ozs.) whilst my similar 30" Webley 12 bore only weighs 1440 grams, or 50 3/8 of your ounces.

HB

I'm sure you found this, which has an estimated DOM by SN. The “Knickerbocker Hammerless” was listed from 1904 to about 1910, then the “Knickerbocker Improved” with coil spring locks until 1916.
https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/folsom-crescent-american-gun-co-tradename-information.308330/
and
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OxZo5Tkvx2G8eYf747QR9B5RJdN6Siu5JGIhfguSXXQ/edit

The 'Armor Steel' rough forged tubes were sourced from Belgium like all the other U.S. doublegun makers. Early on they were decarbonized steel, but by the 20s were AISI 1040
A Crescent tradename gun with the tube maker L. Lochet Habran and steel source Acier Cockerill Liege



The barrels (and gun) were entirely fabricated in Norwich
It is typical to have no other marks on the barrels, but most Crescents I've measured had 2 3/4" chambers.

I am aware of a Crescent bored at about .700". The barrel borers at Crescent were motivated by volume and not quality. Or it could have been the day after St. Patrick's Day

Thanks for all the responses guys. Makes sense that they were Belgian made rough forged tubes, although I was under the mistaken impression that many of the American higher quality makers sourced domestically for fluid or non-composite steel. A lot in Houtchins' book on the Hunter Arms deals with Sanderson Bros. in Syracuse, but Parker seems to have imported all its barrel steel, composite and fluid, from Belgium, and I recall seeing the LLH stamp on both Ithaca and Fox barrels. So, for the time being I will forget about it, and see what the tight cylinder bores do on the pattern board with modern shot cups. Thanks again.

If you have pics on your drive, all you need is a FREE hosting site like imgbb. It's easy...

Our best guess is that Sanderson, and later Crucible Steel, served as import agents
https://docs.google.com/document/d/17ixogftgITEblNUWtmFBv96ZvgjK6eFell8GsAWd-KI/edit
Scroll down to the bottom for "Where Were My L.C. Smith Barrel Tubes Made?" by Roger L. Domer and published in “The Journal of the L.C. Smith Collectors Association”, Winter 2017

A few doublegun makers DID source tubes from Whitworth and Krupp pre-WWI
Winchester contracted with domestic steel makers, including Bethlehem Steel Co., Remington produced its own decarbonized and fluid steel barrels, and possibly J. Stevens.

So I uploaded 3 pics to ImgBB but have no idea where to find the url to enter into the image url box. Why cant I just click and drag here?