doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com New 8 Gauge

I ended up winning the auction for the 8 gauge I referred to in the Flying Bullet post. It is a P. Webley underlever. I think proofs show that it is 1865-1875. Barrels are 32" English Laminate wth open chokes. I guess that was a pretty common thing at the time. I have or 6 Parkers, Scotts, and this Webley of close to the same period in 8 and 10 gauge and all but one are uncut and cylinder. The address on the rib is the St. James address in London. The gun weighs 12-1/2#. Pictures look like modern style stock dimensions, which could be believeable with an English gun. Possibly restocked at some point but that's fine with me at the price I got. Possibly a barrel reblack. I looked at the pictures more closely and the W&S mark is included with the flying bullet, but is much fainter. I still don't understand that time differential. All the pictures look to be good and the seller assures me the bores are pristine and the gun is tight and operates well. The only bloopers are that the hook appears to have been repaired at some time and the dealer (a large one) states that the firing pins are hanging on opening and it may need new springs. That was of no concern to me since it obviously has non-rebounding locks and I am guessing that they are probably not familiar with half cock notches.

Here are a few pictures from the auction. When I get it and inspect it, I will take some better shots.





















[img]https://i.imgur.com/fE8oWsx.jpg[/img]

Very nice gun. TRW999 published the history of P.Webley on this line:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=449397

It looks like it could have been originally a pin-fire. Photos of the top of the breech of the barrels might show this better. This was discussed recently in this line.
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=645624

Just an observation. Choke boring as we know it was not really used until Greener perfected it, published it in December 1874 and won a "The Field" shoot-off in March 1875. At that point virtually everybody began advertising choke bored shotguns but there were not that many actual takers. UK proof laws changed at that time (1875) to require "Not for Ball" on guns with choke bores but if the barrels were not choked - no stamp. Thus on unchoked guns the proof marks will be the same from 1868 to 1887 (or in many cases 1855 to 1887).

For those interested here is a single barrel Reilly 8 bore percussion gun that might be really fun to shoot:

https://www.rockislandauction.com/d...-8-bore-single-barrel-percussion-shotgun (originally advertised 15 years ago as a 6 bore). It is a J.C. Reilly, SN 7802, which would have been made at 502 New Oxford street as part of the JC "7000" series guns probably around 1853. The burst pattern on the backside of the breech heralds similar patterns used on the chambers of pin-fire breech loaders a few years later.

Good point on the choke markings and age. No references with me but wasn't the gauge and choke in a diamond after 1875? I thought a barrel without choke was marked with the gauge in a diamond. This is simply marked 8 on both sides.

The pinfire thing may be true but other pictures of the top of the breech don't seem to show any indication. Also, when did the underlever come into use? I thought the number was around 1859, after which I suspect pinfire production may have been low. I will say a conversion in 1897 or later would explain the W&S mark, but that seems awfully late for such a conversion.

Also, that is a nice percussion. I have seen several incredible English percussion for sale lately for very favorable prices. I bought a fabulous Manton 14 gauge converted from a flintlock for a price well down in 3 figures.i think these guns are smart buys for holding long term.

Gauges were not require to be stamped on UK barrels until 1855. However, a few makers always did it among them was Reilly. It is a simple straight-forward number - no diamond. I'll post Diggory's excellent chart again:


The under-lever was patented by Jones on 7 September 1859, patent 2020-59. The patent becomes public property in 1862 - how or why the patent was broken is unknown to me but surely there is literature about it. (Jones surely got the idea from the French gunmaker Berringer).

Pin-fires continued to predominate up to around 1872 per an unscientific measurement based only on my Reilly database and some of the ones I've labeled "converted to center-fire" might have been original centerfire. See the line I posted where a realization dawned that there were were two basic designs for central fire from 1865 on. 1866 really was the dawn of the shotgun center-break central fire gun when Boxer and Berdan almost simultaneously invented a primer that could be used in a C-F shotgun shell.

Stanton took out his patent 367-67 on 09 February 1867 for rebounding hammers and an improved version on 30 Dec 1869 patent 3774-69. However, it wasn't used widely until much later and you can find guns being made into the 1880's with non-rebounding hammers.

This thread is a great reminder of the value of this forum for education and information. Complete contrast to the often seen bitching and ranting threads. Thanks gents.

curious about this under-rib. What's with the holes and the crushed section?

Doubt very much that this was ever a pinfire .Question I ask is about the stock .Looks far to good for a gun of its age , so it has IMO either been very carefully renovated and re checkers or re- stocked in recent years .
Holes in the bottom ribs and tail piece/short rib suggest rust and possibly a re-soldered loop and that the barrels have been re- browned .Possibly a little leakage in doing so have had these drain holes drilled . Not uncommon .

I have the exact gun with the the Jones underlever. I think my serial number is in the same range as yours. I had custom inserts made so I could shoot 10 and 12 gauge loads thru for skeet and sporting clays. Every once in a while I slip in a 8 ga shell with black powder to wake everybody up!

Too cool!