doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Legal question for you legal eagles..

Does anyone here have any legal experience with getting guns, parts, etc back from an out of state gunsmith who apparently, for all intensive purposes, has quit working and is no longer answering the phone, inquiries, etc?
The local police have been called several times and the most they can do is a “wellness” check to see if the guy is still alive, which they have confirmed a few times already. The ATF has also issued a cease and desist on the persons FFL….I’m not entirely sure what that entails or means. What I’m trying to avoid is this persons shop being taken over by the landlord and all of the items inside going to either auction or storage…..or possibly worse.
Looking at possibly taking the next steps legally…
Any help or advice is greatly appreciated.

I can say that I have not had any personal experience but my best friend has been in the same situation twice. But it was on guns had he could not get back from the smith. Sorry to say on both situations he had to get an attorney involved. Once he had his local attorney write a letter and said he would pursue legal action. The second time he had to hire an attorney where the gunsmith lived. He did on both situations get the guns back un-repaired.

If he rents the space, chances are in the lease agreement it states about a landlords lien on the contents if we owes back rent.

John Boyd

Well that sucks.

It would be good to have a hard copy inventory of what you sent him, when it was delivered, serial numbers and details of what each part was. Call the attorney generals office of the state he is in to make a claim against his business with the inventory list you have. I would expect there are issues with taxes, fees and whatnot that are parallel to the issues his customers are having. Know anybody who lives in the area? A knock on the door can work wonders, I know of a few instances where that is all it took to get things square.

Really crummy situation to be in. Good luck.

Best,
Ted

Hopefully, you have adequate proof that the parts are yours.

We had a trailer with a water damaged floor that we returned it to the manufacturer for warranty repair.
The manufacturer declared bankruptcy, and the entire manufacturing facility was chained up, waiting for the court to deal with the bankruptcy.

Our trailer was inside the fence.

We needed to contact the sheriff, prove ownership, and then we were able to retrieve the trailer.

I can’t see how it would be any different for shotgun barrels. Hopefully the serial numbers are on the barrel flats.

FWIW, I’d start with a registered letter requesting this smith contact you.

It could be something like illness that has things bollixed up.

I hope you get a good remedy quickly.

This might be a case where you authorize another member of the site to retrieve your barrels for you to save you having to travel.

If it's worth legal costs, maybe the victim can do the knocking. If nothing else, it would help get a much clearer picture of the situation.

I'd hire an attorney in the area where he's from. Have attorney draft a letter and mailed certified. That way you'll have some proof that he has received your letter.

We do have adequate proof of ownership of the parts & other stuff in his custody. Pictures, a serial number, a copy of the parts inventory when the box was sent, etc. We aren’t talking about barrels or even complete guns, I don’t think I ever said anything about specifically about barrels.
A trailer is an entirely different thing. You have license, registration and titles to back up your claims.




The “victim” hasn’t personally done the knocking. A Good Samaritan who lives close by and is a long time friend of this gunsmith (20+ years family friend) has done the knocking. He and I have been in contact since the gunsmith stopped answering his phone. Multiple times over the last few months. Has even taken him to the Doctors office to get his medications filled, etc. This gunsmith is suffering from an extreme bout of depression….the debilitating kind. Medications don’t seem to be working and now this good friend of his has just about had a gut full dealing with him. I don’t blame him one bit either, he’s a good man and has gone above and beyond trying to help out this situation. Other individuals (David Trevallion, Paul Hodgins included) have tried to talk sense to him as well. They are all old friends. Nothing has worked.

Also….the Good Samaritan has full written authorization to take the parts from the gunsmiths custody if he can get into the shop and grab them. Problem is….he hasn’t been able to get into the shop!!!

How much clearer would you like the situation? I’m not gonna give out too many personal details, they would have no bearing on how to proceed anyway.
Worth the legal cost? I guess on principal alone it’s worth it to me. Nobody likes getting taken. I would just like to hear from some folks who might have been here, in this situation and how to best proceed.

It’s not that complicated.

I think one of the retired lawyers here will outline all the steps that keep you out of trouble.

Send the letter.
File a claim.
Get a judgement.

Go there with the Sheriff and retrieve your goods.

At least the smith is still alive.

No body wants to resolve commercial disputes at the courthouse.

I retrieved a car hoist with just the threatening letter.

.....The ATF has also issued a cease and desist on the persons FFL…"

The ATF Cease & Desist order is just a registered letter from ATF to the FFL holder.
It calls attention to something the ATF will outline in the letter to the FFL that the ATF deems to be outside the GCA for the operation under what class FFL they have been issued.

It will demand that the FFL 'clean up it's act' in so many words and get straight with the rules and regs of the GCA.
The letter demands that the FFL read and then sign and return the letter to the BATF as proof of reading, understanding and that proper followup will occur.

If the letter is not returned, the next step is a personal visit from the BATF to further insist that the business and legal rules and regs be followed.
It can go as far as BATF revolking the license and closing down the business.

Most common recent C&Desist letters are for the change in rules over the parts kits and 80% frames being sold.
But they can be issued for any violations from constant paperwork issues, local licensing noncompliance, etc.

A local shop was shuttered a couple yrs ago over security issues. Easy access, constant burglarys. The license was finally yanked. The County Sheriff's Office took away all the firearms and ammunition to their property room. I don't know what happened to the non gun accessory stuff. They didn't do any gunsmithing or at least didn't adv they did.

Any FFL has to list 'Open to the Public' hours on their FFL application and followup Renewals.
It may only be a couple odd hrs a week,,but it must be there.
It is not actually for the public. It is for the walk-in Inspection and Compliance check of the BATF AND any L/E that has reason to inspect.

Up to a couple yrs ago, anyone with an 01FFL that was marked 'Gunsmithing Only' did NOT have to list Open to the Public hrs. You could do 'By Appt Only.
That has changed. Even the 'Gunsmith Only 01FFL issues now have to put down at least a couple open to the public hours on that application/renewal.

Those 'Open to the Public hours' may be a foot in the door with a L/E Officer assisting. With that and proof of ownership of personal property in the shop to retrieve, it may be a way of getting it back.

I think BATF may have the Hours on FFL's on file

Just some thoughts.

Thank you, Kutter. Thanks for the insight on the cease and desist jargon especially.