doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Pinfire indentification help wanted

I think Drew's assessment of 'prior to 1877' might be as close as one could get with a Belgian pin-fire. That's already pretty good, considering that on the Continent the design didn't really change up until the end of the 19th century, and where the pin-fire remained popular. Unlike in Britain, which had a very short infatuation with the pin-fire, and where new action designs kept popping up, most guns in Belgium, France etc from the 1860s onwards followed the standard pattern, much like yours. There were some oddball actions with sliding barrels and such, but most followed the standard iron fore-end and long forward underlever design (why change it if it works?). Yours has thin fences, which, on a British gun could indicate an early manufacture, but on a Belgian gun it could have been made into the 1870s.

Trying to date a pin-fire gun without a maker's name and a set of ancient ledger books is a real challenge. British guns could have additional clues, such as patent marks, craftsmen's marks etc., but unfortunately my library is thin when it comes to Belgians guns of the period!

Would there happen to be another >>Crown over V<< on the frame somewhere? I am not sure if there was an inspector that used the mark of the >>Crown over V<< but if the Crown is different from the >>Crown over K<< and >>Crown over q<< then the touchmark might just be that of Germanic origin & it would mean that it was in a shop, onhand in early 1893.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

sxs1 by peter Marino, on Flickr

Yes there is one futher to the left. There are actuall 3 V's present. From left to right: One is alone, one has a crown and the other is ? But not on the frame. I'll try to get a better picture.

Mark by peter Marino, on Flickr

Mark4 by peter Marino, on Flickr

On The Frame

Mark2 by peter Marino, on Flickr

Mark3 by peter Marino, on Flickr

On 2nd thought, the Crown may be of Belgian origin and that of an inspector. But the >>Crown over V<< that would have been applied on the frame could have been applied anywhere atop the frame. Like between the hammers, etc. but the preponderance of evidence seems to be tilting the scales in favour of an all Belgian offering.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thank you Raimey! Any idea to the meaning of the spangled (I think I'm using that term correctly) backwards P? Or the other two marks between the candel stick and the crowned V? As I continue to gently clean away the crud build up, I'll post any new marks I find.

I would say that it is a >>q<<. By 1877, the Belgian inspectors had worn out their dies & when they had new dies made I guess that they had the foresight to know that the Germans were going to have a >>Crown<< coupled with many of their proofmarks. So on their new dies they had a >>Star<< or >>Spangle<< placed over their respective letters. There should be additional marks on the lower rib out towards the forend wedge.

The candlestick you note is the >>Perron<<, a staple or insignia of Li�ge.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

The candlestick is Le Perron

Le Perron Fountain is a symbol of freedom for the Province of Li�ge. The original Perron was demolished by Charles the Bold of Burgundy, but was rebuilt by Mary of Burgundy. The present Perron, designed in 1697 by Jean Delcour, consists of a octagonal fountain with arcades in which a column, carried by four lions, supports the Three Graces who carry a pine cone.



It indicates inspection at Banc d'Epreuves de Liege (Liege Proofhouse)



The crowned inspector's marks were used 1853-1877; spangled thereafter

Thank you to both Raimey and Drew! Do you think one V has a crown and the other V a star? I have a lot of reading to do! That google book of yours Drew has so many side sites I don't get very far with out being side tracked...LOL! Not to mention your web site!