doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Hopkins & Allen SxS

A gun shop has a Hopkins & Allen hammerless 12 gauge SxS with 30" twist/damascus barrels. Overall this old shotgun is about 60% condition, with some remaining case-hardening on the action, barrels were clean inside and out, and the action reasonable tight. The plain walnut pistol grip stock had coarse checking (12 lpi?) on the grip and forend. Action was typical slab-sided NE boxlock, probably an A&D copy. I'd not examined one before.

I know these were lower-priced hardware store utility shotguns. All of the H&A's I'd seen before were single shots, and usually in rougher shape.

They wanted $500, and did came down to $450, but I passed. I thought it might be an interesting "project."

1. What is the general opinion of H&A SxS's?

2. What is this one probably worth?

3. Any comments on quality/utility?

4. Any ideas on when these Sxs's were made ?

gold40

worth in the 250 range....100 -200 more for 16/20 gauge.....quality so/so.....made in 1900-1920 era.....or there abouts....I have a 16ga marked Milwaukee Gun Company...with false side plates.....I wouldn't think its worth restoring one...especially a 12ga....and there price is out of line....

It may be a Forehand Patent gun. H&A used the Forehand design after they bought'em out. It's a good action, paired with Twist barrels they make good Vintage Field Grade Shooters. 60% condition would be unusually high condition, the Case Coloring should be very vivid on the metal, and the barrel pattern should be 80% remaining. Remember, that's 60% of Original condition. I suspect the actual condition is lower, overstated probably because it's still in good mechanical shape.

Not considered especially collectable yet, I think I paid around $350 for one with fairly low original condition finishes, but still in good mechanical condition that was absent other major faults.

IMHO, $275-$350 would be the range for a gun with good mechanicals and no major faults, but lower if faults were present.

H&A, as well as Iver Johnson and a few others did make guns with false sideplates, there's a past thread about'em, but this gun doesn't sound like one of those.

A Forehand action looks like this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/053361.jpg

Regards
Ken

4. Any ideas on when these Sxs's were made ?

H&A was out of the sporting arms biz by 1915 when they took on a contract to make MAuser rifles for Belgium. That project failed and so did the company,,bankrupt by 1916. MArlin bought them out and made BAR parts along w/other things in the old factory till the end of WW1

Pre-1898 H&A arms are marked Hopkins & Allen Mfg Co.
The company nearly failed at that time, but was reorgnized;
New big wheels, no more bicycle mfg, and the Merwin & Hulbert line of pistols was dropped.

Reorganized,,Post 1898 are marked Hopkins & Allen Arms Mfg Co.

The SxS's are most probably Forehand & Wadsworth Arms guns.
In 1900 the H&A factory burned . Production was moved into the Forehand & Wadsworth plant in MA as it was for sale at the time and purchased by H&A.
H&A continued to make F&W arms, incl their sxs as well as the H&A arms on salvaged machinery from their burned factory.
H&A moved back into their 'new' facitlity in Norwich in '02. Bringing both their H&A and the F&W machinery.

I passed up a very nice H&A marked 16ga one time.Nice original engraving, checkering, damascus finish. Still wonder why I kept on walking! The action looked like the one posted in the link above. The example I saw was not quite as high grade as that one but ws not a 'Field Grade' either. Nice shotgun!
They made some very nice small and medium frame rifles also in sporting & mid-range target styles.

From the 1902 Hopkins & Allen catalog --







From the 1908 H & A catalog --







The later Hopkins & Allen side-by-side with the false side plates evolved into the Iver Johnson double, which later lost the false side plates.

I bought a sideplate hammerless 12 ga. H&A just as an example of another vintage American double to collect. Very good over-all condition and tight... I think I paid less than $150.00 for it at a gun show several years ago. I wouldn't pay more than $200.00- $250.00 for one in the same condition today. They are not in the same league as the better quality American doubles. And that's a reason a lot didn't survive, and those that did survive sell pretty cheap. I'd say your gun shop will have this one in stock for a long long time at their asking price in the condition you describe.