doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Velocity of 1890's English Pheasant Loads?

Jones;
I agree the first yard truly has nothing to do with velocity loss. What does though is that matter of Sonic speed. Drag rises well out of proportion to the square of the velocity when the the sonic barrier is broken.Thus velocity is lost very rapidly until the speed has fallen to around that 1125 fps. This will of course occur near the muzzle, but not necessarily within a yard. Increased speeds do not give near the advantage in ranging ability the ammo advertisers would have you believe.

Thanks to all who replied, the information is well appreciated. Thanks for clearing up the 1050fps thing too. I'm indebted to you gentlemen once more, sadly I doubt that I stand to teach you anything, but who knows.

The reason we "notice" a lot of velocity loss in the first yard is very simple. It's because velocity is commonly measured at 3 feet in this country, but can also be measured (as it is--sometimes--in the UK) at the muzzle. We notice it because we compare the two figures and say "what the heck is going on?" Miller provides an explanation of why that happens. As to why we don't "notice" it as much at 2 or 3 or 4 yards . . . velocity isn't commonly measured at those distances, even if the drop is similar to what takes place in the first yard. You won't usually find velocity figures, other than the initial number, until you get out to 10 yards (or maybe even 20). And from there in multiples of 10. But readily apparent that the loss in velocity is significantly greater from the muzzle (or from 3 feet, if you choose) to 20 yards than it is from 20 to 40 yards.

I have at hand an old chart published by WW many years ago. Velocities are given at "Muzzle" 20 yds, 40 yards & 60 yds. The following is for shot size #7�.

For MV of 1335 fps velocities are; 20yds = 930, 40yds = 715 & 60yds = 580
Loses for the 20yd increments are thus; 405fps, 215fps & 135 fps.

For MV of 1135 fps velocities are; 20yds = 830, 40yds = 655 & 60yds = 540
Loses for the 20yd increments are thus; 305fps, 175fps & 115 fps.

Total loss over the 60 yds was 755fps for the faster load, 595fps fot the slower one.

To put it another way 195 fps more velocity at the muzzle resulted in only 100 fps more at 20yds, 60fps at 40yds & 40 fps at 60 yds. Loss was for sure most rapid in the area between the 1330 & 1135 velocities.

At 40 yds the 1330 load had lost 46% of its initial velocity, the 1135 load 42% with the vast majority of this loss coming within the first 5 yds.

"with the vast majority of this loss coming within the first 5 yds."

Well, no... it doesn't say that at all.

It does say... that roughly the same velocity loss occurs in the first 20 yards as does in the next 40.

Backing up to the muzzle, with the faster load, 20/3 is 6.6, so at 6.6 yards we should have lost 1/2 of 405 which is 202.

I'd guess 170 fps loss at the 5 yard marker, which is only 22% of the total loss, not the vast majority.

I get the point that it's a V squared issue, and that drag is a bit more when above sonic, but I ain't buying that we lose 100 fps the first yard. It's more like half that, and choke effect is known to add 50 fps anyway.

Ok, so I looked it up.

David F. Butler in 'The American Shotgun' has a a brief blurb on exterior ballistics. His interior ballistics dissertation is much more extensive and highly recommended.

Butler was an 'engineer' at Winchester.

He says in reference to a chart that starts with 1336 fps at 3 feet (coil measurement), "This equates to slightly over 1350 fps at the muzzle".

So, vague and imprecise but no assertion of 100 fps loss in 3 feet.

The Book, "Experts on Guns and Shooting", by G.T.Teasdale- Buckell,published in 1900;details the research carried out by W.S.Griffith of the Schultze powder Company and W.D.Borland.on percussion caps.
The published test results indicates that average muzzle velocity of 12g shells tested was 1200 ft; per second.

Thanks Roy. More interesting stuff from G.T.
https://books.google.com/books?id=P7UrAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA233
12g 1 1/8 oz. No.6 with 42 gr. = 3 Dram �Schultze� in 30� barrel
No choke: MV 1158 fps/ 40 yd. 818 fps
.030� choke: MV 1233 fps/ 40 yd 875 fps

https://books.google.com/books?id=P7UrAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA235
1 1/8 oz. load comparisons. Pressures converted using Burrard's formula
42 gr. = 3 Dram Bulk Nitro � 1" chamber pressure 7,920 psi / MV 1208 fps
45 1/2 gr. = 3 1/4 Dram Nitro � 9,730 psi / MV 1,274
49 gr. = 3 1/2 Dram Nitro � 11,780 psi / 1,328 fps

So, he's saying a loss of about 15 fps in the first yard. How does that get us to a loss of 400 fps at 20 yards?

I have a book called "Shotshells and Ballistics" by John Taylor. I don't know the source of his figures, but he lists velocity--both muzzle and standard American 3 foot, out to 70 yards--for the majority of factory loads available at the time the book was published (2003). He gives true muzzle velocity of a 1330 fps load as 1436 fps. Velocity at longer ranges are similar to the numbers Miller posted.

Will somebody with a chrono please check the velocity at the muzzle, and then again at 3 feet, and report the findings? This isn't an unfathomable, the country is rampant with chronographs.

SRH