doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com William Sumner Hammer SxS - Questions

Good evening Forum friends.
With snow coming down in Chicagoland and being hanging around the house this Sunday without much to do, I decided to pull the trigger on this William Sumner 12Ga SxS. I was not able to find much about this maker from Liverpool and my search in the forum only produced one posting in reference to him, (link below). http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=381868&page=1
According to the information in the link, the address 48 Old Hall will place its manufacture between 1875-1882. Can any one provide any additional information about this maker, (quality, etc.)?

The gun description stated:
Serial no. 2755 [receiver, lower tang, fore-end and barrels], 12 gauge, 30-inch barrels with fixed front bead sight. Damascus finish. Top of barrels marked: WM. SUMNER'S 48 OLD HALL ST. LIVERPOOL. Scroll engraved receiver, each side marked: WM. SUMNER'S. Scroll engraved hammers and lever. Checkered straight walnut stock and splinter fore-end. Barrels are proofed for smokeless powder in England. Round blank brass escutcheon to base of stock. Length of pull: 14 3/8-inches. Weight: 7 pounds.

Question: What type of ammo (max pressure) can you shoot on damascus barrels the have been nitro proved?
Thank you in advance, BillK

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You did good! That is a really nice gun. With minimum wall thickness of .28/.30 I stay under 7500 psi and usually target 65 to 7000 psi. My Edward Whistler back action hammer gun with minimum of .34 is a great shooter with 1 oz shot at these pressures. RST or hand loads with Clays, WST or American Select work well for me.

I presume you meant to out a 0 in front of those numbers as .028,.030 & .034. A barrel with a minimum wall of .28" would truly be a Bear.
The actual max pressure has little affect on the barrel down where the minimum thickness is found. In fact if you shoot the same amount of shot to the same velocity in lkoads with varying max pressures the pressure will be a bit lower "Down the Barrel" a ways with the higher max pressure load. Pressure in a gun barrel is always in the form of a Curve & the max is hit inside the chamber & falls off quite rapidly.

very very nice looking

reproofed when- and can you be sure it as not been altered since?

but those minimum measurements would not concern me

for loads- if you don't reload - you cannot go wrong with RST

http://www.rstshells.com/

don't forget you are not only shooting the barrels - try to take it a little easy on 140-150 year old wood

Paul Crosnoe currently has a Sumners hammerless 20ga with modern nitro reproof in his inventory. I used to own that gun. Shortened at some point, likely for a youngster or a woman, then a piece added to the buttstock (pretty decent job). I've had thoughts of reacquiring it at that price.

Sumners went out of business long enough ago--well before WWI--that there's not likely to be that much information on him. But that 20ga I owned showed that they turned out some pretty nice stuff.

Bill: if you could please post a full size close up of the barrels flats, several here could tell you the actually max. load and pressure for which the gun was reproved. Opinions are helpful, numbers are moreso

1925 - 1954 12g barrel flats were marked with chamber length and 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 oz.
In 1925, the 2 1/2� & 2 5/8� 12g max. service load was reduced to 3 Dr. Eq. with 1 1/8 oz. shot with a mean pressure of 3 1/4 tons by LUP = 9,682 psi by Burrard�s conversion.
The 2 3/4� 12g max. service load was 3 3/8 Dr. Eq. with 1 1/4 oz. shot with a mean pressure of 3 1/2 tons = 10,427 psi by Burrard�s conversion.

This would be even better 3 Dram 1 1/8 oz. shot

Thank you for your replies. I do not have the gun in my hands yet. As soon as I do, I will post detailed pictures. BillK

Historical Data For William Sumners

Name William Sumners
Other Names W Sumners & Son
Address1 219 Oliver Street, Birkenhead
Address2 48 Oldhall Street
Address3 48 & 50 Oldhall Street
Address4
Address5
Address6
Address7
City/Town Liverpool
County Lancashire
State/Region/Province
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gunmaker
Other Address
1858-1890?
Notes
William Sumners (b.1826 in Liverpool) is known to have worked for Williams & Powell, he may have been apprenticed to them. He was recorded in the 1841 census as a 15 year old apprentice gun maker living with his parents, John (b.1781 a furniture broker) and Mary (b.1793) Sumners, and his twin sister.
William left Williams & Powell in 1858 to establish his own business at 219 Oliver Street, Birkenhead.

He was recorded in the 1861 census living at 219 Oliver Street with his wife, Mary J (b.1829) and three daughters, Helen (b.1853), Mary (b.1855) and Kate (b.1857).

He was recorded at this address up to 1860. He does not seem to have been recorded in the 1871 census.

In about 1875 he was recorded at 48 Oldhall Street. In the 1881 census he was recorded
at this address. Another son and daughter had been born, John in 1862 and Blanch in 1866, but between 1866 and 1881 his first wife, Mary J had died and he had married Jane (b.1831 in Whitehaven). In this census he described himself as a master gunmaker and William Jnr, aged 21, as a gun maker.

In about 1883 the firm's address became 48 & 50 Old Hall Street and at about this time he made his son a partner in the business which was re-named William Sumners & Son.

The firm appear to have closed in about 1890.

Other Info

It's the same road that William Richards had a shop, they bought a few Liverpool makers in the past, it may be worth emailing them, the new owners have most of the records so may be able to help you with some info.