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#407204 06/17/15 09:24 PM
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Phail Offline OP
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Getting Harris Holland 8 ga Double #3018
Hammer Breechloader back action 30% Scroll 50% case colors
@14 lbs 36 in
About all I know at this time-will be weeks before I have it
no pictures
About when was #3018 made? Factory records?
THANKS
Bill McPhail


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1874 to 1875

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You most fortunate person! Yes I put it circa 1874. Get hold of a copy of Donald Dallas' book Holland & Holland The Royal Gunmaker Updated edition of 2014 which will go well with your purchase and is a wealth of information. If you contact the Makers on http://hollandandholland.com/ they should have full details. Looking forward to your posting about it with pictures. Lagopus.....

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Thanks for the input-had to get this gun to get the gun I really
want-package deal-partial to American guns
Will repost when I get the gun
Thanks Again
Bill


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The IGC information on Holland & Holland is, as you would imagine, rather lengthy! Below I have extracted that which principally applies to Harris Holland, for your interest:

Harris John Holland was born in 1809 in London. Both his father and grandfather were organ makers. Harris appears to have worked in the music business from about 1820, and in the late 1820s he married Elizabeth (Eliza) (nee Marshall b.1814 in London). They later had two daughters, but no sons. In about 1832 it appears that Harris raised the capital necessary (from his father-in-law?) to start trading as a retail tobacconist at 5 King Street, Holborn (now Southampton Row). However, he was not recorded in the trade directories until 1834. By 1840, Harris Holland's tobacco shop was obviously well established and profitable. At the end of that year or at the beginning of 1841 he moved to larger premises at 9 King Street, and the rooms above the shop became his residence. The 1841 census records him as a tobacconist living in King Street with Eliza. From the end of the century the firm erroneously claimed establishment from 1835, but this date did not refer to his business as a gun maker. Precisely when he began to sell guns and accessories is not known. Harris Holland took up the sports of competitive rifle and live pigeon shooting, principally at The Old Red House at Battersea and the Hornsey Wood Tavern. By the 1840s he was a very competent and well known shot. It is likely that the guns he sold at this time were purchased from other live pigeon shooters who had fallen on hard times, and new and second-hand guns bought from various gun makers. Harris acted simply as a retailer. A little later, his guns would have been made mainly by London makers, but perhaps some Birmingham ones as well. Much later he bought almost entirely from Birmingham makers.

The 1848 trade directories listed Harris as a tobacconist and gun maker, by 1850 he was listed only as a gun maker, so he had probably disposed of the tobacconist side of the business by that time. The 1851 census records Harris as a gun maker at 9 King Street living with Eliza, a shop assistant and three lodgers. The first records of gun orders began in 1855 (about 25 per annum starting with No. 544). The year 1855 was also the year in which William Gilbert Froome (b.1841 in Hurstbourne, Hampshire) was taken on as an apprentice. Between about 1853 and 1858, probably in 1856 or 1857, Harris Holland leased a field about 8 acres in size near to the railway station in Willesden. This was for the use of customers who wanted to try guns before buying them and for testing shotguns and rifles and cartridge loads. There were limited workshop facilities on the premises. In 1858 Harris Holland moved the business to prestigious premises at 98 New Bond Street. At first he probably leased this property, he bought the freehold later, probably in 1876. The building was small with insufficient space for manufacturing and only room enough for limited finishing, storage, and repairs and adjustments. The move to New Bond Street resulted in a doubling of orders to about 65 guns per annum, sales of new guns bought for stock and second-hand guns would have raised the figure considerably.

On 3 May 1860, Harris, having no sons of his own, took his 15 year old nephew, Henry William Holland, into the firm as an apprentice. Henry Holland was the son of Harris's younger brother, John (born 12 October 1845 at Somers Town, Kings Cross, London, a grocer and commercial traveller). In the 1861 census Harris and Eliza were recorded living at 6 Harlesden Cottage, Willesden with Fanny, Harris' niece. Next door was Rose Cottage which was occupied by Frederick Gates, a gun maker. In the same census Henry was recorded as an apprentice living with his mother and sisters at 9 Queens Road, Marylebone. On 31 July 1861, Harris Holland and Walter Payton (a watch and clockmaker) patented (No. 1904) a side-lever operated slide forward and drop breech-loading mechanism very similar to the Dougall Lockfast. It is said that this had applications for converting military muzzle-loading rifles to breech-loaders. This was Harris Holland's first and only patent. During the 1870s the firm's rifle sales increased significantly (from about 100 to about 400); the range of large calibre rifles being sold was wide, but a majority of the firm's sales comprised rook and rabbit rifles made in Birmingham (see Rook & Rabbit Rifles under "Other Info" below). In addition to becoming known for selling quality rifles, the firm had also been building a reputation for large bore guns, from 2 bore to 8 bore, and later in the century they were to sell harpoon guns, but it appears that in about 1872 they started to sell punt guns. Initially, these were based on a design by Alfred Clayton of Southampton, but later models were improved by the addition of extractors and a screw breech. In 1885 the firm assembled the first double barrelled punt gun ever made. This was for Sir Ralph Payne-Gallwey, it was made to a design by him and Henry Holland. This incorporated the screw breech which was patented on 5 January 1885 (No. 152). The barrels were soldered parallel, and a delay was built into the trigger mechanism so that one barrel fired after the other, with the result that, due to the recoil, the birds were shot both on and just above the water.

The 1871 census records Harris (as Henry J!) and Eliza living at Roundwood Farm, Willesden, with a male and female servant. In 1875 Holland sold his first choke-bored shotgun. Some sources state that it was on 1 January 1876 that Harris Holland made Henry William Holland a partner in the firm, which was re-named Holland & Holland. Other sources state that the partnership was established on 29 June 1876. It may be that partnership agreement was only signed and dated on 29 June 1876. The agreement between the partners changed in 1879, 1880 and 1883, but the essence of the various agreements was that Harris Holland would take a cash sum (100) out of the business each month, plus a share of the profits (two thirds declining to four sevenths after 7 years); Henry would pay 1500 by instalments for his share of the business, and he would take 50 per month plus the remainder of the profits (by 1883 they each took half the profits, and the agreement stated that when one died the surviving partner would pay 500 pa rent). On 9 October 1877 Henry married Anne Harriet Green, daughter of an upholsterer.

In 1878 Holland & Holland sold their first hammer-less gun (Anson & Deeley box-lock patent No. 1756 of 1875). Most hammer-less guns of this period sold by the firm were made to Thomas Perkes patent No. 1968 of 1878 (sold to W & C Scott), some were made to Gibbs & Pitt hammer-less under-lever patent No. 284 of 1873. On 11 January 1879 Henry Holland and Thomas Perkes patented an intercepting safety No. 134 which related to Perkes' patent No. 1968 of the previous year. This was Henry Holland's first patent.

Eliza Holland died on 6 December 1879, and on 22 July 1880 Harris, aged about 74, married Charlotte Frederica Puddick, aged 31, daughter of a wine merchant. The 1881 census records them living at 3 Greville Place, Marylebone, with Jane Hawkins, Harris' widowed sister (b.1821), a male and female servant and a cook. Henry was recorded living at 148 Lancaster Road, Kensington with his wife, Ann (Ann Harriet Green b.1842 in Brixton, married 1877) and two sons, Harry (b.1879) and John (b.1880).

By about 1880, Holland & Holland had developed their "semi-smooth bore rifling". This shallow rifling did not become quickly fouled by lead and black powder residue, and although it did not have enough grip to spin the high velocity bullets developed later, it had enough to grip the low velocity rook rifle bullet (this perhaps is why in 1885, Fosbery offered the firm the rights to manufacture his "Paradox" shotgun (see "Other Info" below). In 1881 the firm sold a record number of guns, over 600, the record was never broken.

On 2 March 1896 Harris John Holland died, he was buried not far from Joseph Manton's grave in Kensal Green cemetery. This is overlooked by the current Holland & Holland factory. When Harris Holland died he left his controlling share of the firm to his young wife, Charlotte, and left nothing to Henry. Henry bought Charlotte's share but, in order to raise the necessary capital was forced to turn the firm into a limited company. The 16,000 5 ordinary shares in the company were allocated to Henry Holland. The 14,000 5 preference shares were sold to investors, mostly customers of the firm. The details of the sale disclosed that the firm had about 12,000 customers. They also reported average profits of 10,000 pa for the last 7 years and 13,000 for the last year.

Tim

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Phail Offline OP
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Tim
Thanks for all the details. No records for #3018 per Holland &
Holland- New York Store
Will post pictures when gun arrives
Bill


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Bill, I think you will need to contact the Makers in the London store. I understand that records for that date are complete. It all depends on condition but a Holland 8 bore will be quite valuable. Lagopus.....

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Lagopus, thanks I will contact them. It is a very nice gun
-just do not remember all the datails at this time
Bill


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Contacted London Office which sent e-mail to New York
1874 only info
Silver Sheild. London Proofs
Will have gun in 3 weeks hopefully
Thanks
Bill


J W McPhail

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