doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Joseph Lang & Sons SxS Shotgun Enquiry:

Hello Everyone,

I am considering buying this Joseph Lang and Sons 12Br and am very eager to establish the value of this weapon as I have no idea?
These shotguns seem to be very top end but they also seem to vary tremendously in price/value.
I have the opportunity to go and check out this weapon so any advice on what I should look for would be much appreciated.

I would greatly appreciate any other info you can give me on this weapon.

Thanks, I look forward to hearing from you!

Guntree

Very fragmentary information, pretty poor photos--which do not appear to show a gun in "good" condition. The seller doesn't even know the "caliber" of the gun? I expect it's a 12 bore, but that's very basic information.

Many well known English 'names' such as Joseph Lang made 'best guns' in their London premises, but also sold cheaper (usually) Birmingham made guns under their name. I suspect Lang's did this - it was fairly normal practice.

Often such guns are of good enough quality, but quite plain. They were frequently exported. As far as I know, virtually ALL main names made 'plainer' guns - often mainly for export with the exception of Boss & Co. Boss did sell plainer guns, but under the name of Robertson (who was a manager of Boss &Co.)

Some were made 'in house', but many were made in Birmingham. Incidentally - the practice continues today with many top names having at least some of the work on their less expensive guns done in Italy and Spain. Some are more open about the practice (and who actually does the work) than others.

Welcome to the Board, Andy.

The ad notes the seller is in Natal, South Africa. The Durban area has gunshops that he can take the gun to. He can tell them you will call and that they may give you, the caliber (bore), condition (any dents in the barrels, etc.,) and even whether the gun is still in proof. He may not choose to permit all that.

Second, as the gun is in South Africa, he is going to have to jump through the South African hoops to get an export permit, if you do not live there yourself (your location is not listed in your post 'tho you seem to be there or going there to check the arm out). If you are South African you will have the hoops to jump through to get a gun permit.

If you cannot get a sound gunsmith to look at the arm, and I believe Bob Henry (google him) may still be operating south of Durban, then you should:
--look at the proof marks on the barrel flats, swot up so you can figure out what they mean and what period they were used in.
--Check the barrels carefully for pits inside (and out) and for dents.
--Is it a sidelock as shown by the distribution of the pins on the locks?
--Is the gun tight which you check by taking the forend off and seeing if there's any play of the barrels against the standing breech?
--Is there any visible space between the barrels and the standing breech (not a problem if the barrel faces and action faces have some space). Being "off the face" should be a deal breaker for you.
--Check if the barrels "ring" by carefully holding them up by the dollshead or what have you and rapping them. Lack of a ring tone may mean the rib(s) are loose.

Likely more checks, and others can add to, or give a better, clearer lists. Best is to get a serious gunsmith to assess the arm.

For determining value, if the gun is sound, John (above) has got the right slant, and a look at the gun auction sights and some of the better dealers may give a clue as to what people are asking for various grades of Lang.

Regards, Tim

The photos are not very good, but I think it shows a sidelock, stocked to fences, engraved with a nicely shaped receiver. Wood, from what we can see looks ok, but the one photo of the bores shows a lot of dark areas [pits??] and that is not good.

Obviously, condition and price are key to value. So advice to have the gun inspected by a competent gunsmith is important. If that is not allowed, pass.

Re Joseph Lang, he was an important innovator in the 1800's, in fact the first London gunmaker to build and sell breachloading guns. They were also the makers of the Vena Contracta, which may well be one of the worst ideas in game gun design, ever.

I can't find any reference to suggest Lang made anything but best guns, but as y'all know, the records are not complete for any of the old firms, so who knows?

If you want to see a good example, take a look here:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/JOSEPH-LANG-SXS-SLE-12-GA.cfm?gun_id=100514342http://www.gunsinternational.com/JOSEPH-LANG-SXS-SLE-12-GA.cfm?gun_id=100514342

It was built in 1906 and shoots beautifully. I know because it was my gun.....

Welcome to the board, Andy. For comparables, go to Holt's Auctions, auction #A0315 (the current auction set for March 19 (I think), look at lot #1418, 1441, and 1450. Lot #1418 looks to be very close to the Original Quality (OQ) of the gun in the photos and near a similar Current Condition (CC). It has an auction estimate of BPS 1,000 to 1,500. Lot #1441 looks to be similar in OQ to your gun and lot 1418. However, it has had a bunch of restoration and, so, estimates at BPS 800 to 1,200. Lot #1450 is a higher OQ grade gun and in higher CC level than the two others. So, it estimates at BPS 3,000 to 5,000.

My valuation chart shows that the current market considers Lang as a Brand Value level two (BV2 = 3/4 of BV1 Boss, H&H, Purdey, & Woodward for similar OQ and CC). The OQ of "your" gun and #1418 look like "C" grade SLE's which is OQ4. If we assume CC at CC6 to CC7, we have BV2-OQ4-CC6 = $2650 (USA) and BV2-OQ4-CC7 = $1,850 (US). Lot #1450 looks to be an "A" grade (OQ2) gun in "heavily used but unabused condition" which makes it BV2-OQ2-CC4 = $8500 (US).

I'm a bit concerned about those barrels - pits and dents.

DDA

Thank you so much for all your advice, Gentlemen!

I am a hunting outfitter based out of Durban, South Africa which makes it convenient for me to go and take a look at this weapon. The owner has indicated that he may take in the region of R15 000(+-US$1200/BPS900). It seems clear(as per your valued advice) that the weapon needs to be inspected by a good gunsmith, particularly for pits/ dents in the barrel.

Tim, I know (Alan) Henry very well and have bought many weapons from him. The gun is currently at another store, but I may take it to Alan to look at.

Thank you all once again, good to be part of your Board.

Andy

That gun looks like it could be similar to this one:

http://www.safarioutfittersltd.com/EnglishPage12.htm

That's Lang's best-quality sidelock.

So if this is the same grade, it's a very nice gun.

OWD

Thank you kindly for the information. It may be a similar model. I don't believe the owner of this shotgun has any idea of the value.