doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Alternative(s) to Merrington and Damascus

Bellefe, The current cost of Teague lining is £1100.This includes proofing and blacking or browning but does not include any other repair work that may be needed.The cost of separating the barrels and dealing with the bulge and re-laying the ribs will likely cost around £300 and the cost of shipping the gun to England and back
another £300. IMHO you should figure on at least $3500 for the complete job door to door.I know of what I speak. Terry

Be aware that if you have a serious ring bulge you will in all likelihood need to take off the rib to have it repaired all round.

The place where your bulge occured is worrying - this is a very strong section of the barrel and one where a lot of the pressure is present when the gun is fired, you clearly had a serious blockage to cause the damage.

A teague sleeve job would still require repair of the bulge first, then re-laying the rib,then the lining, then re-proofing, then re-browning.

This is going to be expensive - but thankfully you were not hurt in the accident, let's not forget that.

"These are not Beesley tubes," well right you are sir, as mine are steel, intact and still original. Something must have gone afoul with those wonderfully made barrels.
Btw, what's the caper on the 20b shells and 12b guns?

"These are not Beesley tubes....they are Holland tubes, properly struck to create a balance unlike any makers of early 90’s, excepting the W & C Scott & Sons Premiere. And +$2k is not the issue....Having, a pleasing to the eye, workmanship is everything. If a root canal must be done, then so be it, but I'd sure like to find a way to keep the Damascus and the incredible balance those Holland and Holland are so renowned."

Couple of issues with this. I've measured a number of H&H's from the 1890's and I can say for sure that the "renowned" part is based on relatively thin tubes. The thin tubes lower the moment of inertia and give a very lively feel. "Balance," I assume, is being used in the sense of a summation of handling characteristics, not as the tetter-totter point of the gun. However, H&H and Scott are not the only makers to have done this. If you will measure the barrel wall thickness and ask that it be replicated in the lining/sleeving, your gun will retain this objective handling characteristics. If it can't be restored at current wall thickness, then it will gain a bit of weight, move the balance a bit forward, and slow its swing a wee bit. These changes can be predicted if the new wall thickness is known and tested with tape on weights so you will know how it will handle prior to having the work done.

Now, if you have bought into magic handling created by elves in the employ of H&H and not reproducable elsewhere, then, IMO, anything you do will disappoint.

I have had Briley do several chamber sleeves. I think this is a candidate as mentioned before for a LONG chamber sleeve. THis is assuming the bulge is not an outside problem.

Can anyne explain to me whay it should cost upwards of $500 to send a gun to Engand and back? The gun is an antique so it can be sent directly to Teague and that costs about $50 + insurance if just the barrels are sent. So where does all the extra cash go?

Years ago I sent a gun to the Birmingham Proof house for reproof. It cost me about $55 to get it there but they couldn't send it back. They refuse to get an British exporters permit, which at the time was free for the asking. I had to pay a few hundred to get a dealer to return it to me.

Perhaps one of our members from the UK can explain it to me?

The cosmetics after hammering the bulge out determine which route to go. I am going to send it off to Brileys for a prognosis. If the cosmetics are pleasing there must be some sort of CNC machining that could protect the weaken area with a mini sleeve/insert without affecting this wonderful balance on this early Royals made by W. & C. Scott until 1898.

After pass shooting Teagued Holland of the same vintage, I was impressed he was able to save his Damascus, but the guns with exact barrel length, similar LOP felt much different. His felt more top heavy and Todd agreed when we traded weapons.

Rocket man I have to disagree fundamentally with your MOI thesis…. Probably, because I do not understand your underlying assumptions. Feel is often, ”one man’s junk is another man’s treasury.” A 6’2” man does not “feel” MOI as a 5”10 man. Shooters with same physical charter but different ages feel the same MOI differently.

Do you have enough data to regress wall thickness and arrive at a MOI? Could I give you wall thickness, barrel length, lop weight and you could give me MOI. If. then, I gave you a MOI what data/variables would you give me back to tell me about the gun's features within reason. Very interesting forecast

My Scottish guns of the same era like my MacNaughton and Mort were made with what you call thin tubes while the Holland and Purdey pre Whitworth had thicker tubes but contrasting balance within the London guns.

B - disagreement causes horse races - a good thing, IMO.

Disassociate the subjectiveness of "feel" from the objectiveness of measured characteristics. A seven pound gun weighs seven pounds and will until someone adds or removes some material (wood or metal). But, how any given person feels about seven pound guns is an open question and should be discussed. So, weight, balance (tetter-totter point), and MOI don't tell you how a gun feels, rather they tell you how a gun "is." How you personally feel about differing "is's" remains open to discussion.

Calculating MOI from dimensions and maerial properties takes a serious computer and hardware. Fortunately, it is quite easy to measure - much like calculating weight as opposed to "tossing" the gun on a scale and reading the output. I can estimate MOI's, but usually prefer to measure.

Once you have weight, balance, MOI, and overall length, you can easily forecast the results of material removal or addition on weight, balance and MOI. Tom Hammernick provided the program to do this - thank you, Tom!!

Word of caution - there is a very considerable mental factor in "feel." Curiously, high quality guns usually "feel" better.

I'll be happy to work with you on this issue. Questions?

Question-
What is the rational ( other than cosmetic) for repairing a very slight ring bulge? The late Mr. Ruppell voiced the opinion that the barrels ( fluid steel) may actually be strengthened by the " cold tempering" caused by the pressures involved in the forces causing the bulge. Is the barrel integrity actually compromised?
In damascas barrels, I can understand that the welds and occlusions in the fabric of the metal may be deleteriously affected by pressures encouraging the " unraveling" of the ribands. Sleeving (I would prefer the Teague method to save those wonderful damascas patterns) or relining may be the only choice if the gun will remain a "shooter".
Any have any definitive data on ring bulges ?
best regards,
JBP

JB,
In this case, cosmetic reasons may be enough since this gun sounds very valuable.

Hopefully, the late RR wouldn't use "tempering" to describe hardening. It's my understanding that "tempering", as it pertains to steels, means to 'reduce hardness' to a desirable level.

Just my opinion, but each case of bulging should be assessed on its own to determine what level of detrimental damage has been done and what solution is appropriate. If this is a relatively small bulge, simply working it down may be all that's required.

After some recent and past posts on Briley's workmanship on things other than choke tubes, my choice of sources for this work would not include Briley.