doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 2 1/2 2 3/4

I never realized/knew that the "pie crimp" came about as early as the 30's. In the mid to late 50's I was still seeing and shooting roll-crimped shells, but if memory serves me most of those were in 12 gauge with the size of shot marked on the card wad on the top of the shot. I believe the first, and the most, of the pie crimps I shot were in 20 Gauge Federal Monarch shells. Of course, then 20 gauge shells were red just like the 12's! AND, they were paper!!! Wonderful smelling-when-shot PAPER!!!! I miss those paper shells. Actually, bought a flat of Federal 7.5's in paper hulls a few years ago. I shoot them occasionally when I am feeling nostalgic!! (Translated, that means when I realize just how old I have become)!!

Twice Barrel,
I don't consider the Double Gun Journal as a "gun rag".
Mike

Nor do I but our Australian friend didn't specify which magazines he was getting his information from.

I highly suspect it wasn't the DGJ.

Quite right. Speak to any reputable gunmaker who has made 2 1/2" guns, or either of the Proof Houses and they will say "don't do it".

You can't get better advice than the maker or the Proof Houses.

The fact that of course it doesn't always burst or cause obvious damage at the first shot doesn't make it either sensible or safe.

Perry;
As I recall Burrard's writing on the subject it was the late 30's & much of the work was delayed by a little mis-understanding between the Brits & the Germans. The primary reason for testing to see if the fired length of the shell could be lengthened while retaining the standard load was the fear of the shorter overall length of the standard length shell being closed with the pie crimp being confused for a 2" shell & loaded in a gun chambered for that length. When I first became interested in the Shotgun in the mid 1950's the Federal shells are the only standard gauge shells (.410 is not a gauge) I recall as still being loaded with a roll crimp & they advertised a Frangible top wad which was supposed to shatter upon firing, thus not "Blow" the pattern, a factor of course highly advertised by those using the fold crimp.

John our Colonial gun makers made guns which are considerably stouter than those made by the British trade and your CIP standards versus our Colonial SAAMI standard reflect that. Testing by two highly respected researchers, Sherman Bell and Tom Armbrust plus years of actual use have verified that firing 2 3/4 inch ammunition in a sound firearm with shorter chambers is quite safe. Bell/Armbrust tests show that firing standard 2 3/4 inch shells in shorter chambers increases the chamber pressure in the neighborhood of 400 psi or roughly 4%. I personally don't shoot 2 3/4 inch shells in my horribly outdated and unsafe guns with Damascus barrels but have no qualms about shooting them in my post 1920s steel barreled guns all of which are 16 gauge with 2 9/16th barrels.

I have on my desk before me the 1947 Second Edition of Major Sir Gerald Burrard's The Modern Shotgun, Vol. III �The Gun and the Cartridge�, and give full recognition to his exhaustive research, support from Imperial Chemical Industries, and personal experience.
HOWEVER, shotshell performance and ballistics changed substantially in the U.S. 50 years ago after the following:

Remington �SP� high density polyethylene compression formed hull with a separate base wad was introduced in 1960. The polyethylene �Power Piston� Figure 8 wad (Patent 3,217,648) in 1966. The one piece �RXP� with an integral base wad in 1972.

http://books.google.com/books?id=scA6lVmzQA8C&pg=PA21&lpg
Winchester/Western introduced the Mark 5 polyethylene shot collar in 1961, followed by the one piece compression formed plastic hull for the Super-X in 1964 and AA Target shells in 1965.

The Federal Riefenhauser (straight wall) plastic shot shell was introduced in 1965.

Previous threads on this and other forums have also shown examples of modern plastic 2 3/4" hulls which when fully opened were shorter than 2 3/4". On Sat. I'll do some trash diving after shooting skeet out at Ben Avery and collect an assortment of shells and post an image and measurements thereof.

quite a can of worms I have opened here
ALL of it is EXTREMELY interesting
Thankyou all very much for taking the time and interest to reply
I have no intention of using longer shells than the chamber allows
A point we may have overlooked is________________ tho and a half " shells were generally about ounce and an eight of shot
Two and three quarter were ounce and a quarter of shot, AND there lies the crux of it
I will be interested to see the replies

Cheers Pete

MANY THANKS TO BRUCE DAY AND THE PGCA FOR THESE IMAGES.
The 20g hulls were shot in 2 1/2" chamber c. 1900 Parkers

Winchester AA 12g



Winchester Dove & Quail 12g



Remington STS 12g



Winchester AA 20g



Remington 20g



Remington Game Load 20g



Remington STS 20g



Federal Game Load 16g



Remington Game Load 16g



I have measured the B&P Competition One 7/8 oz. 12g shell and it does measure exactly 2 3/4" opened.

Actually Pete the US standard maximum shot charge for Skeet and Trap is 1 1/8th ounce regardless of case length . True a lot of 1 1/4 ounce loads were and still are used for hunting and even some heavier short magnum loads weighing in at a whopping 1 3/8th ounce but the number of hunting loads fired per year pales in comparison to the number of Target loads consumed.