doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Moore & Harris, London SN 5381 Double Barrel

From post #316972 I can see that my gun probably would have been made between 1838, when Wm. Moore and Wm. Harris formed a partnership at 35 Loveday St., London, (now Loveday Rd. if it really is in London but if it is really Loveday St. then it might be in Birmingham, England, NW of London ??)then in 1840 moved across the street to 36 Loveday St, and 1845 when Wm. Harris stopped trading in his own name.

Street view by Google is here:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/36+Loveday+Rd/@51.5081419,-0.3174484,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x48760d8f5e507fa1:0x4cff907b1321e167
Or here if it is in Birmingham:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/35+Loveday+St/@52.4865109,-1.8955813,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x4870bc9044e3f3db:0xd2272320e536b6ab

Anyone have any more info?

Is there a reference book from which the info in post 316972 was obtained? Any records as to who was the first purchaser of this gun or when, other than the 7 year period I mentioned? TIA

I was not able to find the post you refered to. However, I have done some research on Wm Moore, Wm Grey and Wm Harris. A lot of excellent information is available on the IGC.

In 1829 Wm Moore (who was already in business in London) opened a stock making business at Court, 4 Whittall Street, Birmingham. This may also have been a purchasing office. In 1837 the stock making business moved to 35 Loveday Street, Birmingham where it was recorded up to 1845. This seems to have been the start of a long relationship which William Moore had with William Harris who occupied 35 and 36 Loveday Street at various times. William Harris was born in 1817 in Aston, Birmingham. In 1838 William Moore and William Harris were recorded as partners in the firm of Moore & Harris, also at 35 Loveday Street, but William Harris also traded from these premises in his own name. In 1840 the partnership was recorded at 36 Loveday Street trading as gun and pistol makers; at least some of the guns sold were marked "London" and were marked Moore & Harris, London and were proved in London. Harris ceased trading in his own name in 1845.

They appear to have supplied the trade as well as William Moore in London, and they also developed an export trade to the USA. William Harris was recorded in the 1851 census as a master gun maker employing 5 men. He was living at 38 Great Hampton Street, Birmingham, with his wife Emma Lucy (nee Hedder b.1813 in Northampton), and his mother-in-law and a servant. On 1 October 1852 William Moore and William Harris patented a hinged percussion revolver which was produced in limited quantities (patent No. 69). By 1859 in Birmingham, Moore & Harris had expanded into barrel and lock making and in 1861 they moved to the Great Western Gun Works at 91 Constitution Hill. The 1861 census records William Harris and Emma Lucy living at 36 Loveday Street. William described himself as a gun maker. In 1862 the partnership of William Moore and William Harris exhibited military and sporting guns at the International Exhibition in London. In 1864, perhaps because of temporary financial problems (American Civil War contracts ending?) or because William Moore died (no date of death is known though my own suspicion is it was 1859), the business at the Great Western Gun Works at 91 Constitution Hill was sold at auction; the buyers were a partnership composed of "Moore and Harris" (I suspect a company name) and a Mr Richards. Mr Richards was probably Westley Richards. In 1864 and 1865 Westley Richards joined Moore & Harris in a partnership established to save the manufacturing business of Moore & Harris from closure. The venture failed and, because Moore & Harris had a fairly substantial business exporting to the USA, the business was bought at auction by W & C Scott & Son.

Moore & Harris are known to have been trading in 1867 from a showroom at 2 Long Acre, London. When it ceased trading is not known, but it may have been prior to 1870 or even up to 1877. William Harris was recorded in the 1871 census living with Emma at 126 Buckingham Palace Road, London, clearly having moved down from Birmingham. He described himself as manager of a gun factory. There are no known extant gun production records for Moore & Harris.

Gun examples I have come across include:
1: 30" Damascus barrels, not choked. 3" chambers. Early Birmingham proofs. Side lever action. This is a very early breech loader. Research reveals that Moore & Harris made guns under military contract and also made sporting guns for export to the Great Western Firearms Company of Pittsburgh. They also developed a reputation for converting muzzle loading shotguns into breech loaders.
2: No 5987-Single bead sight on a solid concave rib marked "MOORE & HARRIS, LONDON. LAMINATED STEEL". Light scroll engraved hammer and lock plates. Lock plates marked "MOORE & HARRIS" with game bird scenes on the lock plates and trigger guard. Nicely figured checkered walnut forearm and straight grip stock with flat butt plate and initial oval. Complete with a leather and double faced embossed shot bag marked "4 / lbs". G
3: Moore & Harris, serial no. 1909, 14-bore, with re-browned twist signed sighted barrels, engraved patent breeches each with platinum plug, signed border, scroll and game scene engraved back-action locks, figured walnut half-stock with chequered grip and fore-end, re-blued engraved iron mounts, silver escutcheon, and original brass-mounted ramrod with London proof marks and maker's mark 'M&H'.

Hope this helps.

Tim

I have Moore and Harris serial number 1969, very similar to 1909 above. 15 gauge London proof marks.

Here's what I've found on William Moore:

William Moore was probably born in 1787. In 1808 he was recorded as being in business at 118 Whitechapel. He was also recorded as being a stocker for Joseph Manton, probably from 1809 to 1820. It is possible that Charles Moore of the firm of that name was his son.

From 1818 to 1853 William Moore lived at Colchester Road, Edgeware. In 1820 he established his own business at that address, but by 1828 his trade had increased to the point where he required larger premises so he opened a shop at 78 Edgeware Road.

In 1829 he opened a stock making business at Court, 4 Whittall Street, Birmingham. This may also have been a purchasing office and finishing workshop.

In 1835 a percussion lock developed by Moore was rejected by the Board of Ordnance.

In 1836 William Moore was appointed Gunmaker-in-Ordinary to King William IV, and in that year the name of the firm changed to William Moore & Co.

In 1837 or 1838 the firm were appointed gunmakers to Prince Albert.

Also in 1837 the business at Court, 4 Whittall Street moved to 35 Loveday Street, it was recorded up to 1845.

In 1838 William Moore and William Harris became partners in the firm of Moore & Harris, also at 35 Loveday Street, William Harris also traded from these premises in his own name (it is likely that William Harris was related to Alfred Harris who traded as a gun barrel maker in Birmingham - see Joseph Harris of Lionel Street).

In 1840 the partnership was recorded at 36 Loveday Street trading as gun and pistol makers; at least some of the guns sold were marked Moore & Harris, London, the partnership probably used William Moore's address. The firm appears to have supplied the trade as well as William Moore in London, some of the guns sold were marked "London" and were proved in London; the partnership also developed an export trade to the USA.

From 1840 to 1845 William Moore also traded in his own name as a gunsmith from 35 Loveday Street (the terms "gunsmith" and "gun maker" were interchangeable at that time), Harris also ceased trading in his own name in 1845.

In 1847 William Moore and William Parker Grey, who had been Clerk and then Manager for Joseph Manton, went into partnership in London at 78 Edgeware Road, they operated as Wm Moore & Grey but Wm Moore also continued to trade as Wm Moore & Co, presumably in respect of one or two aspects of his business.

In 1852 William Moore and William Harris patented a percussion revolver which was produced in limited quantities (Patent No. 69).

In 1854 William Moore and William Grey started to trade as William Moore & Grey from 43 Old Bond Street, but William Grey and his son, F H Grey, also started to trade as William Grey & Son at 41 Old Bond Street. William Moore may also have traded from 43 Old Bond Street as William Moore & Co. Between 1854 and 1859 the firm of William Moore and William Grey, like William Moore & Co, were appointed gunmakers to Prince Albert.

By 1859 in Birmingham, Moore & Harris had expanded into barrel and lock making and in 1861 they moved to the Great Western Gun Works at 91 Constitution Hill.

In 1861 Frederick Beesley was apprenticed to William Grey at William Moore & Co at 43 Old Bond Street.

In 1862 the partnership of William Moore and William Harris exhibited military and sporting guns at the International Exhibition in London.

Between 1862 and 1865 the firm advertised the fact that guns not made by them were being engraved with the name Wm Moore & Co, London.

In 1864, perhaps because of temporary financial problems or because William Moore died (no date is known), the business at the Great Western Gun Works at 91 Constitution Hill was sold at auction; the buyers were a partnership composed of "Moore and Harris" and a Mr Richards. The Moore could have been William Moore or his wife, or William Moore Jnr (?), Mr Richards was probably Westley Richards.

However, the new partnership closed within a year and the business was sold to W & C Scott & Son who valued the firm's USA export market. The firm of Moore & Harris, perhaps now owned by William Harris, probably moved to London, they were known to have been trading in 1867 from 2 Long Acre, London. When they ceased trading is not known, but it may have been prior to 1870 or even up to 1877.

In 1866 Henry Atkin moved from Purdey to work for the firm, he founded his own business in 1877.

In 1867 F H Grey, who by this time had probably taken over from his father, patented internal strikers on hammer guns (No. 2743).

In about 1873 the name of the Moore & Grey partnership may have temporarily changed to William Moore, Grey & Co. In 1878 the firm became a limited liability company, William Moore & Grey Ltd but in 1889 it reverted to unlimited liability.

In 1893, when the Inanimate Bird Shooting Association was formed, a "Mr Harris of Moore & Grey" attended. Apparently, he ran the Wealdstone Gun Club which was based at Harrow.

At some time prior to 1896 the firm registered a patent (No. 18582) for an automatic safety.

In 1896 the firm moved to 165 Piccadilly and in 1902 to 8 Craven Street, Strand. In about 1897 they opened a branch at 11 The Arcade, Aldershot; Aldershot was and still is the "home" of the British army. It appears that, in common with other gunmakers at the time, the firm's sales did not warrant in-house gunmaking facilities, and that they were buying guns from Cogswell & Harrison.

In 1908 Cogswell & Harrison took over the firm, and Robert Grey joined them. This was probably when the Aldershot branch closed.

In 1917 Cogswell & Harrison moved the company to their own premises at 226 Strand and William Moore & Grey ceased to trade under their own name.

In 1928 Robert Grey died, also in that year Cogswell & Harrison left the Strand and operated only from 168 Piccadilly. They later included a "Moorgrey" model in their range of guns, this was a low priced model which was never very popular.

Lorne, I suspect your information came from the IGC, but some time ago as John Smith has recently carried out additional excellent research which has thrown new light on WP Grey.

I quote from IGC: "There are reports that in 1847 William Moore and William Parker Grey, who had been clerk and then manager for Joseph Manton, went into partnership in London at 78 Edgware Road, but this is incorrect. The William P Grey who went into partnership with William Moore was William Patrick Grey, a wealthy lead merchant and lead manufacturer who had a son named Frederick Hargrave Grey who was apprenticed to William Moore. Undoubtedly, William Grey was a live pigeon shooter, a market that William Moore supplied, and undoubtedly he bought himself and his son a partnership in one or more of the branches of William Moore's business. The partnership operated as Wm Moore & Grey but Wm Moore also continued to trade as Wm Moore & Co [this name was used for his export guns]. William Grey was recorded in the 1851 census as a 56 year old (b.1795) leaded glass merchant employing 6 persons. He was living at 3 Abbey Place, St John's Wood with his wife, Emma (b.1803), their children, John B Grey (b.1829 followed his father in the lead business), Frederick H Grey (b.1831) who became a master gunmaker but then took over running the lead business, and a niece, Emma H Buchan (b.1830) and a servant."

It is Frederick H Grey who was running the Wm Moore & Grey business by 1861. The census of that year has him at the WM&G Bond Street address: "At the time, F H Grey was described as a "gun maker master employing 12 men and 1 boy wholly and many more latterly in their homes"." His father, WP Grey died in 1864.

I had not included this in my first reply as the OP was clearly more interested in the Moore & Harris relationship. It's interesting that Wm Moore had diverse dealings which included Joseph Manton, the London best gun trade, the Birmingham trade, exports to USA and with the above mentioned WP Grey. Frederick Beesley and Henry Atkin also had involvement with the firm, though after Wm Moore's suspected death (see above).

Tim

Tim

Thank you for the update. I pulled a file off my lap top that probably came from the IGC indirectly. I had done some sort of search when I picked up my Moore and Harris.

Since Joseph Manton died in 1839 and Joseph Egg took over the business, the hiatus for William Parker Grey (to 1847) would have been mildly curious. Perhaps equally curious is the confidence with which W. Patrick Grey is asserted. The evidence may be overwhelming, but it is not presented here.

Hi Lorne

I didn't think this the right thread to post evidence etc. However, having looked at the actual census returns myself, the proof is very much there, including addresses to prove which Grey it was living at the Bond St Wm Moore & Grey shop.

All fascinating stuff, though!

Tim

Moore and Grey 16 bore. Grey patent. 43 Old Bond Street.

Makes sense! My response, as a historian, was more about the limits of historical knowledge than about this situation. The earliest complete manuscript of Thucydides "Peloponnesian War" is from the 10th Century AD, over 1300 years after the original. So accepting that we have access to what he wrote, involves an act of faith--and there is pretty good reason to believe that the record is largely correct.

In this case, the record sounds very reliable.

Again, thank you very much for the update. I will replace the original passage in my file.

Hi Tim!

Along on the topic of the original thread: My Moore and Harris came to the US in the early 1970's. An American who was posted to Great Britain during the Vietnam era got into shooting Black powder Skeet. The gun was well restored as a shooter. The barrels are re-browned, the bores were honed, the locks have been cleaned and polished, as was the butt plate. The engraving was not retouched after polishing and it is now sort of a coin finish. They did a very nice job on it without going overboard. The thumb on the left hammer broke off, but I was able to get it repaired by a local gunsmith who trained with Dickson.