doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Pictures re L C Smith Barrel Question

Thanks for your response. I may already have my answer based on the barrels reading "Armor Steel"; however, I have these pictures for you to see what you think.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/Georgepat/130_3040.jpg?t=1173293190
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/Georgepat/130_3041.jpg?t=1173293543
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/Georgepat/130_3042.jpg?t=1173293611

George, I also saw your post over on the LCSCA, couldn't help you then, and really can't say much to help you now. I read what Topgun told you, his advise is some of the best.
In seeing the pictures now, it looks like your gun was made in 1920. The RE stands for Regular frame and the "E" is for ejectors. Does this serial number appear on the receiver's water table, and on the forend metal?
It is kind of odd to see Field on the bottom and Specialty on the top. The writing on top of the barrel looks right to me. Plus it looks like there is some scroll work near the begining of the barrels, didn't do that on Field grades.
Hopefully Tom (Topgun) will reply and settle it.
One other thing, I don't think that proof marks were stamped on the barrels then (1920). Another mystery.

George: the first pic clearly show the 'Field' stamp and the Hunter Arms Co proof mark which became standard after about 1922.
How an Armor steel Field brl ended up on a Specialty gun is only a guess now. It's possible that the Cody records might help http://www.lcsmith.org/shotguns/search.html
LC Smith stopped using damascus brls as a regular option in 1919, but they could still be special ordered thereafter, presumably until the supply ran out. Your gun was manufactured in 1920, so Tom's idea that the gun was re-barreled is certainly reasonable.

You might try Walt Schiessl (714) 956-2869. He is on Pacific time and is verey helpful. He is known as the L.C. Smith man and can answer just about any question you have. Don't be afraid, he loves to talk about "Elsies"

Also noted that in looking at the first picture, there is scroll work on the lug that comes through the receiver, odd and definetly not on a Field Grade.
Look closer on the barrels before the water tables, there should be stamped Nitro Steel for Specialty or Armor steel for Field Grade. If in fact they read Nitro steel then it could have been that Monday morning or Friday afternoon syndrome. (a mis-stamping)

Thanks to all of you for your information. The serial numbers do match on the table and the forend and the barrels. The barrels do have "Armor Steel" on them -- so now I'm really puzzled. Think I'll take your advice and try to reach Mr. Schiess. Appreciate your time. George

George, the only thing I can tell you now is that it is a Field Grade and someone either sent it back to the factory for the engraving or had it done by someone who copied the Specialty pattern.
One last thing, look at the checkering, on a Field Grade it was 18 lpi, on a Specialty grade it should be 22 lpi. Plus what is stamped on the receivers water table, should be R E19285 and near it an S for Specialty. Loosen the trigger guard and look for the serial number there too. Inside where the sideplaates come off, there should be an "S" stamped there. Lastly like Revdocdrew stated get a letter from Cody, put down everything that you posted, serial numbers, barrel length, etc.

Here is my theory for whatever you think it may be worth. Based on what I know of Smith guns, I believe, based on the fact that the engraving and serial number stamps are correct, that your gun was rebarreled at some point after original shipment by Hunter Arms. Exactly why it was rebarreled may never be known, perhaps the original barrels were damaged beyond repair; or perhaps, given the fact that your gun shipped about the same time Hunter was transitioning away from Damascus barrels (and I have seen a few examples of Specialty Grade guns from this same period with Damascus barrels), that a later owner had an original set of Damascus barrels replaced. But regardless the reason, the gun was rebarreled; and done so with a lower grade set of barrels, which is not often seen but is not uncommon either when studying Smith guns. So why would someone do this? Let's consider Hunter's replacement/extra barrel pricing policy (and my original catalogs are on loan, so some of this information will be from memory); typically, Hunter's price for an extra, or replacement set of barrels was 50% of the retail price for that particular grade (fore irons extra), therefore for comparison purposes and using 1936 as an example year for pricing purposes, a replacement set of Specialty Grade ejector barrels would cost $59.25 (catalog retail of $118.50/2=$59.25) while a corresponding replacement set of ejector Field Grade barrels sold for $28.60 (retail of $57.20/2=$28.60). As you can see these guns were always expensive items, and remained so even during the depression era; so you can see why a cost conscious shooter would be more than willing (maybe forced to be by the constraints of his wallet) to take such an opportunity to save a few hard-earned bucks, especially given the fact, that outwardly, the appearance between Armour and Nitro Steel barrels is exactly the same, and that Armour Steel barrels also had a great reputation for strength and shooting qualities (some have even argued that the only differences between barrels marked Armour and Nitro were the stamps; that their alloy content and make-up was the same, I personally have no idea). One final theory is that the gun began life as a true Field Grade, was then sold to a Hunter employee; who then hired or bartered with fellow employess to upgrade the gun to Specialty (which Hunter allowed; employees worked 6-day weeks and 12-hour days, but workers were allowed (even encouraged) to work on their own guns and guns for each other during slow periods and after hours). It is possible, but not likely, that the old shipping records have an entry regarding this barrel replacement; and you may wish to contact Cody in that regard. Wish I could be more specific; but short of researching and verifying the actual history of this gun, theories are about the best you can hope for. Good luck.

Tom:

Either of your theories make sense. I know engraving was cheap to do back then, any idea how much the the breech and lug engraving would have cost if the gun were rebarreled with a cheaper set of tubes? No silver inlay on the rib either.

Norm: Actually I do have some idea of the engraving cost for the Specialty Grade, at least as of 9/19/41. In my files are copies of a departmental cost spreadsheet for the engraving department providing the in-house labor costs for all current, and most "old style" (pre-13) Smith guns. It is dated as above, and entitled "Engraving Department"; and prepared by A.E. Kraus. The labor cost, as of the date of that schedule, for engraving "all but the barrels" on a Specialty Grade Smith is noted on a page entitled "Operation 105" at $6.50. On the following page entitled "Operation 107" is noted the cost to engrave the barrels; $.50. No mention is made on any page regarding the silver precious metal bar; but with dimes actually made of 90% silver at the time, I suspect that cost was also relatively low. As to the specific gun noted above, the engraving cost involved with those barrels would have been included within the overall cost of the barrel replacement itself (and was likely no more than the 50 cents noted above). To provide some sort of perspective between the cost of labor to engrave Specilty Grade (at $7 total), and a Deluxe Grade (at $315 total); we see that the Deluxe Grade required a staggering 45 times the labor cost of a Specialty. Going in the other direction for perspective, the entire labor cost to engrave an Ideal Grade was $1.40. I don't have any stocking information; but I'm sure those Grade differences were equally substantial. But we can now understand why the Deluxe Grade retailed for the princely sum of $1200 in 1941 dollars.
By the way, this same engraving cost schedule listed engraving functions on several of its pages for an "A-4 Grade". This is the only known reference to an A-4 Grade Smith gun; so obviously, some were made. So remaining questions: where is an example, how was it marked, was it marked as to grade at all, what differentiated that model from an A-3 or Deluxe? I positively can tell you that there is no reference to any such Grade in the surviving shipping records; but that I have also talked with a gentleman who claims that one such example was once owned by a member of his family (he still has the serial number and constantly searches for this gun). But regardless the fact that this grade is not evidenced within surviving shipping records (which only contains minimal information at best), I believe the A-4 Grade to be real; if not, why would Kraus place references to such grade within his departmental cost schedules? It's these little details that keep this hobby interesting.