doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Model 21 muzzles

I'm looking at a 21 Field grade (BTFE, DT, EJ) in the 4700 S/N range. It has 30" barrels marked MOD / FULL, but they measure (with a cheapo brass gage, it's the best I could do at the time) IC / IM. every 21 ive owned seemed to be more open than marked. The end of the ribs look like it may have been cut. I had a VR Trap grade once that looked worse, but had definitely not been cut. So my question is did Winchester just not pay that much attention to the muzzles? Am I crazy?

Generally Model 21 chokes were defined by performance rather than the amount of constriction. So if a barrel was to be choked "Improved Cylinder" they would bore the choke out so that the gun shot 50% of its charge into a 30" circle at 40 yards.

As far as I know all makers and manufacturers today would define "Improved Cylinder" by the thousandths of an inch of constrction(say 12 thousandths for IC).

All of the chokes I have experience with shoot tighter than they should. Mod shoots near full, IC shoots mod, etc... But of course I am shooting cartridges with shotcups and plastic wads. Most of the 21s were built in the days of fiber wads.

I onec had a 21 two barrel set. A left barrel was marked "Mod" and was was about 12 thousandths I remember.


Best,

Mike

The first thing you have to do is measure the bores and chokes with a micrometer. We have no idea what kind of cheapo gauge (your words) you are using.

Pattern is the effect of the restriction that the choke causes when the shot to pass through. The bore is relevant only in that the difference between the bore and the choke area cause the pattern to be altered from true cylinder to a tighter pattern (form). Measure the bore and then the choke area. Write it down. Then shoot the gun at a patterning plate.

Your choke gauge can not work as a true indicator of expected pattern. The only thing you can learn is if one choke bore area is tighter than the other. Paper and counting is the only real test.

I have seen guns shoot patterns which were vastly different from what was expected. So many variables can change the pattern. I had a set of skeet tubes which were choked .007 and they crushed birds at all stations while a second set with chokes .010-.014 chip birds like crazy. On paper the open set should be the more open set but when you pattern them the more open set throw much tighter patterns.

So even knowing the choke constriction does not mean for certain what they will produce. My shooting partner for years refused to ever pattern any guns. He worried that what he saw on paper would undermine his confidence and thus he would not shoot the gun as well. To each his own.

I should have explained my situation a little better. I'm 2500 miles from home and found a gunshop with a 21. I'm not that familiar with them, but I've owned 2. Both VR Trap guns. The muzzles on both would have been declared "cut" if they were on any other gun, but both had original length barrels. The barrels on this field grade touch, but there is a triangular void with solder between the ribs and barrels.

My question is: Do 21's have muzzles that look cut on standard rib guns too, or was this just VR guns?

I'd love to see a picture of the muzzle end of an original condition standard rib 21.

Also, if it matters, the barrels are 30" so if its been cut it would have been 32" to start with. Thanks for any help.

Typical 21 muzzle. I've got 4 std rib guns and they all look about the same. JW

Another 21.

Thanks 12brd - that's what this one looks like.

What is the value of a minus 5/1000s choke over a zero?

Reputation aside, 21s can have some pretty dainty (thin) barrels. About Winchesters in general, it has been my opinion that Wnchester got more working choke with less constriction than a lot of their contemporaries, so if the bore mikes out a little open I wouldn't be too worried about it.