doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Weight of 'Pigeon Guns'

Didn't want to walk on Mark's thread about acquiring a 10g, but the issue of 'Pigeon Gun' weight came up and this is interesting.

At the Riverton Handicap March 8, 1895
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1895/VOL_24_NO_25/SL2425015.pdf
"It may be interesting to some to note the guns and loads used, and we give it below. It was a lamentable fact that of the 15 guns used only one American make was represented. This was a special pigeon gun of the Parker Brothers' manufacture, and was a beautiful weapon in every way, and was owned by Mr. Post, whose score of 93 on a hard lot of birds did not show that the shooting power was lacking.
All the guns were 12 gauge, and it was noticeable that not a full pistol-grip stock was among the number, and most of them were the straight-grip "pigeon gun" model, nine being of this description, and six of the half-grip style. All were of the hammerless pattern excepting two; Mr. Welch and Mr. Robbing using hammerguns."
Following is the make of guns and loads used:
Capt. A.W. Money - Greener, 7 1/2 pounds.
George Work - Purdy, 7 1/2 pounds.
Post - Parker pigeon gun (AAH introduced in 1894)), 7 11-16 pounds.
Jim Jones - Scott, 7 3-16 pounds.
John B. Ellison - Scott, 7 1/4 pounds.
Fred Moore - Purdey, 7 7-16 pounds.
Leonard - Westley Richards, 7 1/2 pounds.
Mott - Crown grade Greener, 7 2-16 pounds.
J.S. Robbins - Greener hammer gun, 7 1/2 pounds.
R. Welch - Purdey hammer gun, 7 1/2 pounds
Downing - Scott, 7 6-16 pounds.
J.K. Palmer � Francotte, 7 1/2 pounds.
Edwards - Scott Premier, 7 pounds.
J. Wolstencroft - Greener, 6 15-16 pounds.
Eckert - Scott Premier, 7 1/4 pounds.
Shells were 45 - 49 grains / 3 1/4 - 3 1/2 drams smokeless powder and 1 1/4 oz.
Capt. Money (2nd in the 1894 GAH) and George Work (3rd in the 1893 GAH) tied at 94 killed.

In 1898, guns used for Live Birds had to weigh less than 8 pounds.
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1898/VOL_30_NO_24/SL3024020.pdf
John L. Lequin. secretary of the Interstate Association, writes us under date of Feb. 25 1898 as follows:
"We have received inquiries from most all directions recently from a number of shooters who are probably desirous of entering the Grand American Handicap next month, concerning the weight of guns, and whether the handhold and recoil pad will be counted as a part of the gun when weighed. The subject has been placed before the Tournament Committee of the association, which committee has decided that the guns will be weighed naked.
Kindly note, and make this public through your paper at your earliest opportunity and greatly oblige."

The Baker Gun Quarterly, Volume 5, No. 3, May 1900 had an article on the weight of Trap/Pigeon guns used by Capt. A.W. Money (8 pounds - Money used a Greener, Smith, and Parker), C.W. Budd (7 pounds 14 ounce Parker), H.D. Bates (7 pounds 13 ounces), R.O. Heikes (7 pounds 15 ounce Parker but after the GAH at Live Birds he went back to his Remington hammerless and won the 1st GAH at Targets), J.S. Fanning (7 pounds 15 ounce Smith), W.R. Crosby (7 pounds 12 ounce Baker), and Col. A.G. Courtney (7 pounds 14 ounce Remington CEO).

Drew, neat stuff. Thanks A quick look at pigeon guns here show a Walter Betts at 7# 14oz and a Cashmore Nitro at 7# 2 oz. Both are 3" guns in 12 bore.

The Art of Wing Shooting: A Practical Treatise on the Use of the Shotgun ...
William Bruce Leffingwell 1895
http://books.google.com/books?id=e34EmE3tkfkC

The king of all pigeon shooters is �Capt.� John L. Brewer of Philadelphia.
Mr. Brewer said to the author:
�The secret of pigeon shooting is to kill the birds quickly, they must not be permitted to become hard birds; the quicker the first barrel is fired the better, and the second must follow before the bird is forty yards from the shooter. I can't say that I admire these long kills, because the fact that a man makes a long kill shows that he was slow in the use of the first or second barrel, and that won't do in pigeon shooting.�
�A pigeon gun should be a modified choke � both barrels. The first barrel being bored a little closer than a cylinder, and the second a little more open than a full choke. Bored in that manner, the first barrel will kill the bird within from thirty-five to thirty-seven yards, and the second up to forty yards, and the pigeon ought not be permitted to get beyond that distance when the second barrel is fired. A man must take every legitimate advantage in pigeon shooting. A modified choke gives that advantage, and when a man uses a full choke he handicaps himself.�
�A gun for pigeon shooting should weigh from 7 1/2 to anywhere under 8 pounds. It should be heavy at the breech, with a long and very straight stock, having a drop from 2 to 2 1/2 inches at the butt. These straight stocks are desirable, because they cause one to shoot high, something which is essential, as there is a tendency to undershoot, and nearly every pigeon is missed by shooting under or behind. A pigeon gun should be bored to shoot a trifle high. Birds going from the trap are almost invariably rising, and as there is an almost uncontrollable tendency to aim at a straight-away bird, one should hold a trifle over.�

My Charles Boswell Pigeon gun weighs 7 lbs 12 ozs.

No weight is mentioned in this 1894 Chas. Godfrey ad (courtesy of Researcher)



Nor the 1897 Hunter Arms catalog for the Pigeon Gun



The 1910 catalog listed the weight for the 12g as between 6 (!) and 9 pounds

Is that naked ?

Godfrey Daniel- naked guns, and with Ladies in the audience-- "This is my Rifle, this is my Gun--etc" Oh, the horror!!

Drew, this is a piece of information to add to your file of "noms de plume". "J.K. Palmer" in the list of pigeon shooters you posted is Joseph Palmer Knapp, the founder of Ducks Unlimited and famous duck club proprietor in New York and North Carolina. He is also known to use just "Palmer".

My Purdey pigeon gun (#14,XXX) made in 1893 weighs 7 lbs. 8 oz. with either set of its 30" barrels.

I am surprised there wasn�t anyone using an LC Smith at that shoot. According to Drew�s record database normally it was the Parkers and Smiths and the occasional Lefever that were fighting it out with the English guns at that time.