doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com best choice

I have been looking for a good knock about double bird gun and I can pickup a Fox Sterlingworth (Utica) or LC Smith field grade for a good price.Both are in great condition,both with I/M 28" bbls non ejector,both 12 ga. I could use some opinions on which one would be the best.The guns are about equal in condition and price.

Both are good American guns....the Utica SW tends to be much heavier than the pre 1930 SW's....both are well made and would serve you well.......

Both being 12 gauge, the Utica SW & LCS have 2.75" chambers.....I would go with condition and which one handles best for you.........in your opinion............

I shoot both Philadelphia Fox's & pre Marlin LCS's and prefer the original Fox Philadelphia guns over the Utica built guns for quality and weight ......


Best Regards,

I have both Fox and LC shotguns....if I had to choose between the 2 Id go with the Fox....

Pick the one that fits you and handles the best.Some doubles just feel better to me than others. Bobby

Check the Smith for cracks around the lockplates. That's about all the "tragic flaws" it might have (and it can be fixed by any decent stocker). Otherwise, they are both gems. Let your hands and eyes tell you which should be yours.

Sad to say, because I love LC Smiths--there are a few more "tragic flaws" in some of them- you are correct about the wood in the tang and lock areas, causes can be excess oil in a gun stored muzzles up, and too many heavy loads. Splinter forearm Smiths have very little "meat" in the walnut at the rear of the forearm, and the two small recessed head screws that anchor the forearm shoe into that area can act as "splittin' wedges" and cause stress cracks-- all these problems can be fixed or prevented however-

My "pet" Smith is a 12 Grade 3E 30" DT- had it out the other day for barn pigeons (my favorite avaian target) and in nov- wore my regular bird hunting coat with extra shells in the pocket loops- I had somehow slipped a express load in the right tube instead of a AA Trap load- when I hit the trigger, I knew it- My three 12 gauge Smiths are all pre-1913 and have Double triggers, two have ejectors, one has extractors- this leads to another Smith concern- loose forearm latching on early extractor guns- The short-lived Curtis latch (1914-1920) possibly somewhat like the British Anson & Deely design- was designed to prevent forearms coming loose when afield. Post 1920 extractor Smiths, like my 16 gauge Specialty Grade made in 1924, had the similar roller latch design of the ejector grade guns- and that seemed to work--

Stock wood and fit- one reason I like the pre-1913 mfg. Smith guns-- WW1 chewed up a lot of the good walnut, here and in England and European lands too- gun stocks, airplane props, carts and cassions that were horse drawn- etc-

I have a AH Fox Utica gun, a 20 Sterlingworth made in 1936, and I agree with the other poster here- a hunting pal has a sweet 16 AH Fox AE with Krupp barrels, made prior to 1916 and in Phila- and I believe the Fox 16 and 20 gauges were on the same frame size (unlike Parker)-- and his 16 with the same barrel length as my 20- seems to weigh less and balance better, and the wood to metal fit is better- although one might expect an A(E) grade to be better in that regard than as found on the economy grade Sterlingworth.

Have you considered an Ithaca 12 with 28" barrels, either a Flues or a NID--If I'm hunting upland birds with a close working dog, a lighter 12 like an Ithaca Flues or an LC Smith FW series is great- with 1 & 1/8 ounce loads-- But if you're hunting pheasants with a dog and using 1 & 1/4 oz. express loads, I'd go with the Ithaca NID or the AH Fox--

I come across quite a few field grade Smiths and Ithacas in my "travels" so if I can help you narrow your search, within your price range, I'll be glad to do so- no charge- I'm neither a dealer nor a middleman. I like to see fellows get the chance to experience hunting with a side-by-side-like with pretzels or potato chips- you can't just stop at one, however!!

Fox hands down.

Why Thank you Joseph--a ringing endorsement from my "favorite" commentator south of the mason-Dixon line. I get my "Run With The Foxes" from words of wisdom from my late Grandfather- He often told me: "Son- in life you'll get to choose whether to run with the foxes or plod with the oxes"-- Oxen don't rhyme worth sour owl spit with foxes-- hence the malapropism herein.

I do agree with you- other than the way over priced M21- the AH Fox boxlock is the strongest of it's type of the American doubles from the past-and waaay less complicated than a Parker of any vintage as far as mechanics are concerned.

The main reason I mentioned the Ithacas- Flues and NID series- is that I have a line on several in 12 gauge- in the $800 or less range- DT and one has ejectors- I didn't know the extend of this gentleman's budget, nor would I ask- but I daresay you won't find either a Phila mfg. 12 Sterlingworth, or even an Utica mfg. one with ejectors in any kind of condition for under $1200 in today's market- at least that's my SWAG--

Thank you Gents for your input.I am not new to double guns as I own and use a WM Ford JP Sauer Royal Simson and Lefever Nitro Special.All are 12 ga. with varing chokes.I have shot other friends sterlingworths and Elsies just havn't owned either.Thank's again.