doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com A couple thoughts on cut barrels

A couple years ago I found a slick little Webley & Scott BLNE, mfg. in 1909-10, 12 bore REALLY cheap. Alas, the barrels were 28", cut back from what I'd guess were the original 30". A smidgen of choke remains, .004 and .004. The buttstock had issues as well, turned out the nearly 2" stock extension was evidently added by the same gorilla that had the bbls. cut, length of pull was nearly 16"! Removal of the stock extension and addition of a recoil pad returned LOP to 14.5" and made a sweet little (6# 3 oz.) close range bird gun that has become my favorite for ptarmigan, blue grouse and preserve pheasants. With 7/8 oz. of #7's, handloaded with plastic shotcups, I've found this old girl to be deadly out to 30-35 yards. My questions:

1. Why in the world did the "gorilla" cut the barrels in the first place?
2. If my experience isn't unusual, why are most people so down on cut barrels? I understand the alterations severely diminished the gun's value but I buy to hunt, not collect. Not to mention, I doubt the Webley would have had any serious collector value in original configuration.

Like you, I have purchased two SxS's with cut barrels, and both have been wonderful upland bird guns.

Many/most of the older SxS's left the factory choked FULL & FULL,
which is not very useful for my hunting situations. Although it decreases the resale value, these "cut guns" may be more useful than in original condition...and more affordable. They are also good informal skeet guns.

I suspect they were previously altered due to (1) barrel-end damage, or (2) to make them handier.

While I would never cut a set of barrels, I'm not opposed to purchasing such a SxS if the price is right.

JERRY

Not all "cut barrels" are the work of back alley "hacks". Some, perhaps more than we realize were ordered as custom guns from the maker with shorter or odd length barrels. The A. H. Fox records document at least one custom gun as being ordered with 24 inch barrels.

I think cutting the bbls used to be one of the recommended ways to open the chokes a bit.

On some guns, it was probably done in reaction the short-bbl/skeet craze, too.

Bbl fads seem to come and go - 25", porting, back boring, etc.

I like mine to be all original and unmessed with.

OWD

I think the popularity of cowboy action shooting has resulted in a lot of bobbed barrels. I know I cut an 1897 down, but it had already been cut once and refinished, so no harm done.
CHAZ

In the Savage Retail Price OF REPAIR -- FOX GUNS dated 1956 Savage would cut off barrels, muzzle and re-sight for the sum of $8.40 or they would Change chokes for $4.20 each.

There's a neat article by Art Wheaton in the Summer 2011 DGJ about his Parker Trojan, with barrels cut from 28" to 26". Didn't seem to hurt his enjoyment of the old gun...

I'm with the vast majority of posters here in that I prefer the length of my vintage gun barrels to remain original; and although I've never cut a gun barrel myself and have no plans to do so, I still cringe when I remember as a kid my old man hack-sawing 2 1/2" off the 30" barrel of his old Win Model 37. But I do make the occasional exception when I purchase a vintage double; and yesterday was one of those exceptions. As you know I have this crazy infatuation for guns made by the Syracuse Arms Company; and was thus inspired to take pity on a battered and abused, but extremely rare, SAC Grade 3 12-bore with cut barrels. The gun in question is a mid-grade piece, that would most likely have shipped to its original owner in 1903. In 1903 the Grade 3 was a $50 gun at retail; but this example was ordered with $10 optional auto-ejectors (but no $5 ejector on/0ff switch); so it would have been a $60 gun. But the most unusual element of this gun was that it was special ordered with Krupp Steel barrels; a feature that was never cataloged for the Grade 3, and an option that would have increased its original price to some unknown degree. I've never come across a SAC gun lower than a Grade A (other than on "lunch-box" gun) with this unusual feature; so, when this feature is combined with the fact that the original owner's 70 year old daughter has been located and may be able to share of history of the gun and her father, was all the impetus I needed to own this gun (and it was cheap). As the gun currently stands,finishes have turned mostly brown with age, it's non-original and once replaced PG stock has been broken again and is now held together with stove bolts, the daughter of the original owner had the hammer springs removed at some point; and at some other point in its long history, those beautiful Krupp barrels were shortened from 28" to 26" (assume original length was 28", as the mid bead is 14" from the breech). But barrel bores still remain bright and un-pitted, most original engraving remains sharp; and this gun will provide the basis for a great upland "project gun" should I decide at some point to restore the gun. In fact, I can already envision the finished piece; now to find the necessary cash!

I am one who has cut the barrels on a gun, but things have to be considered in the proper perspective. My first double gun was a Baker Batavia Leader, 12 ga with 30" barrels. I had trouble hitting with the gun while rabbit hunting, and one snowy day did hit a bunny, and spread blood and fur over a good expanse of snow. At lunch time, I took the gun home and cut 1 1/2" off the barrels. It made the gun useful to me, and was the only option I knew of at the time. The Baker was not a high dollar gun in those days (@1958)as I had about $30-$35 in it. I lived then in a small town, and the internet hadn't been invented, so I didn't know about the spreader shells that are available today by mail order, and besides, my budget dictated buying shells by the each at the local hardware store,rather than ordering them by the case. I would choose different route today, but have no regrets and make no apologies for my method of making a gun usable for me.

I don't think most people care about "collectability" because most of these guns are not rare by any sense of the imagination.......It is that most people do not want to buy someone elses hack job if it can be avoided, so the used market dictates a much reduced price for cut up guns. As more and more of these guns get butchered up, the price of the remaining original inventory goes up.

Example:

**Would you rather buy a nice Browning A-5, vintage 1958, Sweet Sixteen all original....or the same gun with a butchered barrel and a Poly Choke hanging off the end with a recoil pad added........?........Or is it that the buyer just doesn't care and PRICE is the only consideration.....?

**How about the same scenario with rifles......Just think of the thousands of nice rifles that were drilled and butchered for the addition of peep sights and scopes etc......like the many nice original 1886 Winchesters where "Joe da hunta" needed a peep sight on his gun, so he thought........

**Or a Sterlingworth 20 ga....one with butchered barrels/chokes/chambers and a rubber pad priced at X....Same gun with original barrels/chokes/chambers and wood.....Priced at XXXX...........

Pretty much the same with all consumer items.

Bottom line is, most of this was/is about marketing as mentioned above by Twice Barrel......fast and furious marketing.....fads, trends etc......Lyman was good at selling sights and Cutts Compensators....Poly Choke marketed heavy as well.........Pachmyer marketed heavy.....Bishop stocks marketed heavy......not to mention the conversions available for old military rifles and shotguns in the hay day of 'mail order guns'........

One owners 'improvements' that he thinks makes him a better shooter/shot are not looked at as favorable additions by others......

Just like the screw in chokes of today......some people like them, some people don't.........Some people will buy sleeved guns and some people will not......the list goes on......

Best,