S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
31
|
|
|
Forums10
Topics39,515
Posts562,236
Members14,590
|
Most Online9,918 Jul 28th, 2025
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 997 Likes: 7
Sidelock
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 997 Likes: 7 |
The previous thread on the Purdey that's for sale, provoked a thought concerning an N. Guyot shotgun I own.
On the barrel flat there is one mark only, which is the London provisional proof. Any ideas on why the French N.Guyot would have the London proof mark, and also, why there are no other proof marks whatsoever on the barrel flats?
I presume that the barrels were sourced from a London firm, and would assume that the there should be other French proof marks before leaving the Guyot shop?
Thanks
Cameron Hughes
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,164 Likes: 11
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,164 Likes: 11 |
For many years I owned a a very fine Guyot 12G hammer gun[Found in Europe].This gun had London proof marks,from the "Not for Ball",era [1875- 1887].There where no French proof marks on this gun. Guyot was very active in the English market during the late 1880,s.For example their guns placed 4th;and 6th in the Hurlingham ,gun club trials of 1897;out performing some well known English makers,ie;Churchill,Purdey,Holland,at the 30 yard mark. I believe that Guyot either had a shop or agent in England and/or a relationship with a London maker. Efforts to identify their location/ partner in England have thus far drawn a blank.
Roy Hebbes
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598 |
Roy,
You have more info on Guyot than any other source I am aware of. There is little known about Nicolas Guyot. His store at 12 Rue De Ponthieu a Paris arr. VIII is a high rent district of Paris even today. The original building is gone. He is listed as an Arquebusier a Paris, a gun dealer in Paris. He was present at the 1889 Paris Exposition according to one source, but I can find no record of him there.
Pete
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,545 Likes: 106
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,545 Likes: 106 |
I think you will find that proof in France was not compulsory until the early 20thC .I don't have the information to hand but I have it somewhere .The barrel tubes would have been provisionally proofed prior to being "filed" or assembled. I would surmise he bought his tubes from a British manufacturer ,possibly even built up barrels.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598 |
I think you will find that proof in France was not compulsory until the early 20thC... The French system of proof goes back to 1700. The proofing of sporting arms by a government run proof house goes back to 1726. This see-sawed back and forth until Napoleon, prone to his hands on approach to minor matters, decreed on Dec 14, 1810 that the rules of proof of 1782 be followed for all arms. Pete
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 997 Likes: 7
Sidelock
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 997 Likes: 7 |
Thanks Roy. Interesting information from all that have posted. Keep it coming if you have more to share. The 12 Rue De Ponthieu a Paris Arrq. address is found on the rib and N. Guyot A Paris marked on the action sides, other than those markings and the provisional proof marks previously mentioned, the gun is devoid of any other markings on the barrels and 653 is marked on the action flats.
It's a scalloped boxlock 16 ga, with minimal engraving.
Cameron Hughes
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,083 Likes: 380
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,083 Likes: 380 |
Some quirk in the law cancelled compulsory proof in France in 1885. And even though France signed on to the 1914 Brussels International Proof Conference/Commission, it wasn't until June of 1962 that obligatory proof in France was once again in effect.
Kind Regards,
Raimey rse
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,573 Likes: 165
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,573 Likes: 165 |
Raimey is correct--sort of. Kennett refers to late 19th century proof being compulsory only in St. Etienne--and barrels were made in various other places. Then the Paris proofhouse was established in 1895. But on a gun such as the Guyot in question, with English barrels, proof would not have been compulsory--and did not become so until 1962. Again, per Kennett: "The most striking change in the 1962 law is the reestablishment of compulsory proof for all civilian firearms."
Regardless of the above, it is--at least in my experience--quite unusual to find a French gun without a full set of proofmarks. I've looked at quite a few and have never seen one. I expect that's because, at least from the beginning of the 20th century on, it is highly unusual to find a gun that did not pass through either the Paris or St. Etienne proofhouses.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,545 Likes: 106
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,545 Likes: 106 |
Notes on the Proof of Shotguns and other smallarms.Issued by the British Proof house's, States that proof in France was optional untill it became compulsory in July 1960. It also warns that care should bve taken to ensure that marks on French guns correspond to the marks set down in the Notes on Proof.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 997 Likes: 7
Sidelock
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 997 Likes: 7 |
Don't know if this is going to work, but here is a poor photo (I hope-I know it's poor I hope it goes through) of the barrel flats. As you can see, the only marks are the provisional ones. 
Cameron Hughes
|
|
|
|
|