doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com EPA bans lead shot use with depredation permits

Thanks for Your responses Keith and nhcrowshooter.
Bob

Rookhawk, you agreed earlier that game managers have to concentrate on the welfare of species, not individual animals. So can you tell us which species of birds (other than the condor) are so impacted by lead that they can be shown to be in decline--as waterfowl and bald eagles were shown to be in decline prior to the 1991 lead ban? And I would note, once again, that bald eagles--which certainly live in the West, and which certainly eat carrion of whatever kind--have made a near-miraculous recovery as a result of the CURRENT lead and DDT bans. So why do we need to expand the lead ban??

Ben, aka Grouse Guy . . . You do remember, do you not, that your own MT Fish & Game Dept stated: "Lead presence and accumulation under extremely low levels of lead shot use has not been established as a significant environmental concern." You have any more recent "good science" . . . you know, studies that focus on birds IN THE WILD, not chukars on a preserve in eastern Canada or something like that?

This time around, I can guarantee you that you pro-nontox types are not going to sell hunters a bill of goods, without the research to back it up. You'll see repeat after repeat of what happened in MT, if and when a game agency decides to expand lead shot restrictions without demonstrable good reason for doing so.

Hey Ben (GrouseGuy)! You're good at posting links to junk biased science. How about posting a link to the death threat you accused me of making toward you.

Today, as I was returning from Tuscaloosa(bought two bricks of 22LR never know when the ban will kick in))between the Fosters and Epes exits,I noticed four hawk carcasses.This is a distance of about forty miles on south bound I59\20.Now,as there are about 47,000 miles of interstate highway (double this if one considers both lanes)and,if one assumes only one half goes trough areas inhabited by hawks,this means 4700 hawks lay dead along America's interstates tonight.I admit I'm not a forensic pathologist certainly not a raptor rehabilliater,however,I think they all succumbed to an extreme case of chrombumpperitis.I guess one could argue they were all struck by a semi hauling a load of Remington Game Loads.This is indeed a detriment to raptor survival probably far and away more than plumbism. In fact I would consider this observation as sound as any I have seen supporting a lead ban.

And you know for sure these raptors were killed by lead.

Because we are an overwintering area for raptors, there are a fair number killed by cars along the freeways due to them perching on the light standards and hunting the grassy esplenades. In the last two years I have taken 5 to the local vet school that were afoot on the freeway right of way after being clipped by cars. They all had broken wings and would have died in the grass or been eaten by coyotes. The same thing goes for owls. They hunt the grass for rats at night and frequently get clipped by semi boxes.

All dead raptors don't/didn't die from lead. Without an autopsy none of us know for SURE !!!!!!! And for sure by creditable scientists and not some biased eco-queer is the only way to establish policy. I don't trust the F&WS any further than I can spit at them because they have been captured, as has the whole government, by the eco lobby.

Guess I'm pretty simple. All I want to know is if lead is so darned toxic to raptors then why is this eagle so darned healty. It's what is known as a Shield eagle in Argentina and feeds almost exclusively on lead riddled dove. And these eagles abound! (This one was perched about 15 feet from me and critiqued my shooting. Paid no attention to the gun but when he felt like it would hop down, strip and eat the dove in only a few seconds, then jump right back into the same tree. Sorta irritating, especially when I had those inevitable strings of misses.)

Excellent point, Joe. I've been there and seen them also. Eagles, Caracaras, multitudes of smaller raptors..... they abound by the thousands in Cordoba and feed almost exclusively in some areas on lead shot doves. I've never seen a dead one there.

Stan

I've seen the same sight, up to five eagles on the ground in front of me eating doves I had shot with lead shot, of course. I didn't see any dead or sick looking ones around either, but that certainly is no evidence that they are not being severely impacted by lead poisoning. Cordoba would be a very good place for fair minded research into the question at hand.

Argentina is certainly not going to initiate such research. If we are secure enough about lead not being much of a factor in Raptor poisoning, maybe we should encourage the NRA or DU or some other pro-hunting outfit to utilize some of our donated dollars to check it out before the Greenies take it up...Geo

Eco-queer?Read my post slowly.Anyway,my son and I went to Meridian yesterday.On the south bound side of I59\20 there were four hawk carcusses.On the north bound side there were three.The point of my post is that raptors hunting in the median of a modern highway are killed at a high rate and is probably more of a consern than any supposed lead toxicity issue.This is an observation. Just as is posts above relating the to the fact that the posters saw birds of prey eating doves shot with lead shot.One would assume with such high numbers of doves eaten by these raptors they would have seen at least some showing ill effects.Observation is one leg of scientific investigation but admittly does not make a rigrious and complete study.Now for the record I do not support a lead ban nor do I support taking a pickax to the interstate system.Eco-queer indeed,nobody talks to me like that except my wife and momma..and maybe my mother-inlaw.

JDH:

Cool your jets. I did read you post closely and was not talking about you. Most of the guys pushing the lead ban at the F&WS along with the pro-bird lobby have eco issues; Friends of animals, Audubon Society, etc, etc. There are a WHOLE lot of people out there pushing agenda about getting rid of lead and none of us know what kills these birds unless we see it hit by a car or whatever.

Getting lead out of hunting has the same sort of viceral appeal for some folks as banning smoking.