doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Questions on Possible Belgium Guild Gun

I am trying to find out some information about the following side by side shotgun. I have pictures including the barrel flats with proofs but don't know how to post them. Does anyone know anything about these guns?

Belgium Guild Hammerless Gun #1421- Side plated box lock 12 ga. side by side made in Belgium. Unmarked except proofs and the small word “Regina” on the opening lever. Believe it is a a guild gun in the Francotte style. 29½” barrels choked modified and improved cylinder. Greener crossbolt locking system. Chambers measure 2¾”. Double triggers and automatic EJECTORS. Non-automatic safety. The side plates trigger guard, and receiver are beautifully engraved with an intricate floral pattern and scrolls and were coin finished. Excellent screw slots. Walnut splinter forearm has a tiny sliver missing and the checkering was professionally repointed. Repointed checkered walnut straight grip stock of figured select walnut with checkered walnut butt plate. Length of pull 14½”. Drop at the comb 1½”. Drop at the heel 2 7/8th inches.

Elliott

Elliot:
Use this link to learn how to post, http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=168378&page=1 , or email them to me & I'll post them for you.











Regina looks to have been a trademark of Eduard Schroeder while Regina with an emphasis on the "e" was that of Scholberg


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

Thank you very much for the information about Edward Schroeder. Do you know if these are quality side by sides and about how much they are worth?

Elliott

Rainey nailed the maker. This is a nice gun. It is not a guild gun. Will post more in a few days. Busy chasing grouse.


Pete

Pete "Regina" is a trade mark from Schroeder or Scholberd and you can read it on your damascus-barrels web.
So Raimey nailed the gun, again.
Marc.

Elliot,

At the time of proof the barrels weighed 1.334 kgs or 2.94 pounds. If they are much lighter than that, some one has messed with it. It was proofed for nitro between 1910 and 1924 from the proof marks. Given it has Edouard's trademark, we narrow the dating to pre-WWI, so between 1910 and 1914 or so.

The regina trademark was registered by Edouard Schroeder in 1903. He was located at 4 rue Renoz in Liege.

Edouard had 2 sons, Charles Edouard and Max. They established their business 1919 at 26 rue des Comediens in Brussels. Whether or not their father survived the war is unknown, but he no longer was making guns after 1918. In about 1919 they registered 4 trademarks of their own. Being in Brussels took them out of the still crowded Liege market and set them up to deal with larger and more influential clients. In fact, it may account for the firm surviving WWII.

The firm survived the brothers and was in business until 1966. As such, they had a long history in the gun trade. For a time, they were general agents for FN. As such they sold Browning o/u, Zeiss optics, cartridges, swords, muzzleloaders (meant for the African trade), reloading equipment, pistols, rifles, etc. This is from a 1930 catalog. I have not seen a catalog from Edouard.

As for value, the only thing this gun lacks is name recognition. From the pictures, it is up there with some of the better makers of the day.

Pete

Bbls look hot blued, which would be bad.

OWD

Those are pretty good photos, so I'll take a swing. As Pete said, name recognition is missing. I think we can set Brand Value level at four (out of five with one being best known and comprised of Boss, H&H, Purdey, and Woodward). BV4 is defined as Continental makers with little known names or associated with a high % of lower quality production. The photos of the gun suggest a sideplated boxlock (no visibile lock pins in the photos) - a feature usually reserved for higher quality BLE's. This would suggest Original Quality grade of five, a best work boxlock. However, the engraving strikes me as a bit low in coverage % for a best work gun and a bit coarse; the wood is good. Lets say it is an OQ5.5. Current Condition level appears to me to be about "significantly used," CC3.

BV4-OQ5.5-CC3 = $1370. I'd be interested in other opinions as to what others saw in the photos. Note that if this gun carried a Brit name or a well known and better valued Belgian name (Lebeau, Francotte, Bury, Musquelier) it would be BV3. BV3-OQ5.5-CC3 = $2730. What value do others see?

Looking at the going prices and the number of bids over at gunbroker and auction arms your formula is dead on target again Rocket!!

Something I don't see mentioned above: If the chambers are 2 3/4", looks to me like they have been lengthened. The numbers above the "D =" etc on the right barrel flat in the photo look like 65 to me. And it's also not very likely that a pre-WWI Belgian gun would have had factory 2 3/4" chambers.