doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Buy a gun, not the name.

It will be interesting to find out what is behind this gun, who made it? R.A.York known as lock maker from York & Wallin and gun been made within 6 years period in early 90-th. Barrels were from London trade, apparently H&H... Seller calls it as Best SLE, but didn't mention about demi-block or word Best includes this meaning?
On the whole the gun looks like first hand makers product and price 12K pounds for the allmost new SLE gun with London proof marks sounds unbelievable.
http://www.guntrader.co.uk/GunsForSale/detail.php?NewGunID=100704213205660
photo
http://s41.radikal.ru/i092/1007/1c/f1e1466fdfc2.jpg

I was approached about this gun six months ago.

It is a fact that guns made in the trade by gunmakers the mass market does not recognise make less money than those with a recognised name.

Just a feature of the market. I get more requests for 'A Purdey a Boss or a Holland and Holland' than I do for "The nicest sidelock ejector you can find me for £10,000'.

People thesedays want to buy a brand and that includes gun buyers and most readers of this forum (note I did not say ALL).

Just imagine this gun with single trigger mechanism and different gold inlayed 4 letters name and you'll get 10 times more expensive gun. Or imagine what would be start here if someone could find information this gun been assembled by Peter Nellson...
Why not?

The concept that you buy the gun and not the name is flawed in many ways. I can't think of any other product that follows those rules so why should guns be any different?

To the average buyer, or even the above average buyer, buying a name ensures a certain degree of quality without having to make judgments which often are done 'blind' or without adequate means.
Id the average buyer of a shotgun going to have the opportunity to spend days researching an unknown maker and make assumptions of how he came to be? Can he fully disassemble the gun to see that all parts are of the best quality? Nope.

And when he goes to sell the no-name gun he'll take a shot in the shorts just the same because the next buyer won't likely be as forgiving.

'Buy the gun not the name' is good advice for someone who 1) knows London guns very, very well and 2) wants to die owning it.

Make one heck of a grouse and quail gun. Lousy photos - I'd want better pictures and an inspection before I laid the cash out for that. But the lack of a "name" wouldn't deter me if all else were in order and I doubt you'd have too hard a time reselling it if the quality is a fine as the photos suggest.

Geno:
Times are certainly different, but I'm willing to wager that fellows who bought Joe Manton's first guns didn't buy them for the name. Pride of ownership and personal satisfaction in precision craftsmanship should be its own reward. Albeit about 15% pricey in this case.

Best, Kensal

There appear to be a few things that don't quite fit with the description given. The first that strikes me as a bit odd are the decimal bore dimension, indicating 1954 rules of proof.Between 1989-91 you could get either metric or Imperial but after 91 I believe only metric designations were available.If the gun was made over a 6 year period it may or may not have qualified. The second is the actual designation of.614"a very odd size. I have seen non std designations on London Proofed guns but not (as yet)on a Birmingham proofed gun.
Under 54 RoP a 20ga would have to accept a .615 plug the next undersize would be .605. Why would a London Co like H&H stop .001" short of getting the correct dimension??? On the other hand if they were made in Europe 15,6mm would be common giving a bore of .6142". It looks to me that it could be a Spanish Action body and Barrels,Long nosed H&H style trigger plate with York and Wallin Locks ,Birmingham engraving and stocking.
Non of the above being necessarily a bad thing it is I believe still good value for money BUT as mentioned earlier not likely to increase in value much above this point of 10,000UKP/ 14500USD. I'd very much like to hear Small Bores comments on the gun if he's seen/handled it.

"I'm willing to wager that fellows who bought Joe Manton's first guns didn't buy them for the name"

I'm talking about buying guns from makers that have been dead and gone for decades. The guys buying Manton's first guns had the opportunity to A) talk to other contemporary owners and B)talk to Joseph Manton himself.

The market does ascribe value to names and in about the following multiplicands:

BV1 Makers’ Names – Price Factor = 8

Boss, Holland & Holland, Purdey, and Woodward


BV2 Makers’ Names – Price Factor = 6

Westley Ricahrds, Dickson, Rigby, Grant , Beesley, Powell, Atkin, Churchill, Henry, Lancaster, Evans, Watson, Wilks, Greener, Boswell, Gibbs, and Lang


BV3 Makers’ Names – Price Factor = 4

Rest of the British Trade and top Continental (Bury, LeBeau, Masquelier, Francotte, Brancquart, Le Page, Gastine Renatte, )


BV4 Makers’ Names – Price Factor = 2

Lesser known Continental names or names largely associated with low OQ grades


BV5 Makers’ Names – Price Factor = 1

Unknown names or unnamed

The "fly in the ointment" of relying on brand name to determine quality is that, with the possible exception of Boss, all makers sold a range of Original Quality grade guns. Ergo, a BLE Purdey is a "nice gun," but not at all in the same league with the Purdey SLE. Exclusively trusting the Purdey name makes no distinction among their quality grades. So, one needs to consider both name and quality grade. One must study sufficiently to buy safely within his price range and/or rely on someone else to know more and deal fairly. Trusting a dealer is the only shortcut to educating yourself. Using brand name as a shortcut will, sooner or later, sock you in the wallet.

GregSY:
I'm sure you're a fine fellow and only trying to contribute your heartfelt insights here. And I do not wish to initiate a repartee. But I regret to say, you miss my point: ALL of the great names were "unknowns" at one time. And to diminish an obviously fine gun and its makers by brand conceit is unfair to the these men and the apparent work that went into this piece.

In fact, I own more than a few guns by "BV3" makers that I would put up against certain of the BV1 guns for workmanship, grace and overall elegance. Beauty is still in the eye of the beholder, I believe. And so is the choice to buy or not.

Oh yes. It's highly probable that any buyer of this gun would also be able to talk with the maker's contemporary customers -- or the craftsmen themselves. Just like Manton's clients could... when he was an unknown.

With all deference to your wisdom,

Kensal