doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Help needed: Identifying vintage shotgun

I think it's Russian by way of London. I'm thinking Matska.

Here's why: the hinge pin was screwed in from the right. By the time this gun was made (probably 1890s), most English makers screwed them in from the left.

It doesn't have drop point on the stock. Again, by the time this gun was made, most English guns of this quality had drop points on their stocks.

That funky basket of flowers on the bottom of the action. I've never seen that before on an English gun. Again, it makes me think Russia / Matska.

Also, all the Whitworth bbls I have seen have been chopperlump. These appear to be round bar bbls. Like the basket-of-flower engraving, I'm not sure what this means. It seems odd to me. For some reason, it says Matska to me. Of course, I've only seen pictures of Matskas before.

Matska bought high-grade guns out of London, right? Did he bring them out in the white?

Of course, this is just a gut feeling/ wild guess. I have nothing to prove any of it.

Where is it located? Where was your grandfather from?

Thanks

OWD

I sometimes wonder, when a fine gun like this appears with no maker's name, whether it wasn't removed from the rib at some time to make the gun harder to trace.

The reinforcing panels on the side of this gun are semi-pointed. That's unusual and perhaps a clue.

Thanks for your input
Eightbore: I also want to believe that's a Purdey, but I don't want to raise my expectations too high. All the Purdeys I've seen, however, have a logo or Trade Mark of Purdey & Sons
Otdoorlvr: The trade mark I show in the last photo is on a Sir Joseph Whitworth's gun; he was the maker of the barrels of my gun, but I doubt that he was the maker of the whole gun.
Doug: Sorry, I'll see what happens with my posted photos and I will report soon. There is certainly a way to stop that
Steve: I will take your suggestion in consideration. As the gun will be sent soon to a pro for a cleaning, that may be a good time to check that.
Thanks again
Joao

This is no way meant to disagree with OWD, but , might add a bit of info to the mix for thought.
The basket of flowers was used by Belgian makers in Liege in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. This design was taken by one, and more, of Belgian engravers to Italy at that same time. This was especially true in the case of Franchi and was used on his BEST guns.
For what it is worth, this same basket of flowers is engraved on my Monte Carlo Imperial built by L. Franchi in 1934, I think.
As these guns were all "bespoke" guns, it is not unusual to see them with no makers name engraved. The quality spoke for the maker and the advertizing was not needed.
We, here in America, seldom see these magnificent shooters, as the Italian(and other Contenental) owners would never part with them. This is especially true of the Pigeon guns.
I do not think that this gun is Italian though. I think that it is London made and am very pleased to see that one fine gun is appreciated by a decendant of an astute man of good taste.
Just a thought.
Best,
John

John-

Good to hear from you. I'm glad you're posting again.

You may be right. I was thinking about this some more. I may be wrong with my Russian claim, but I don't know about Italy.

I would throw Belgium or France in as possible countries of origin. The gun may have been made on the Continent and then brought into the UK for some finishing and proofing. Before the 20th century, I don't think the guns had to be proofed in their country of origin or marked as imports.

I do not think it's English - Purdey or otherwise.

Stay well, John.

OWD

Perhaps a colaboration between Whitworth and a small artisan Maker of very high quality. Call it a Whitworth and shoot it! david

OWD,
Being in the office at the moment I don’t have access to any reference books but I think you’ll find that after a certain date (1884 perhaps?) guns of foreign manufacture (foreign from a British point of view) were proofed with a different set of marks which denoted the fact they were not of British make. The marks in the photos are just the normal ‘home’ proof marks.


That aside: Regarding the ‘star’ trade mark (or whatever it is) – they look to have been quite a roughly done – not at all like the rest of the gun. I wonder it they were added by someone other than the maker?

A long shot would be to look through the published list of makers serial numbers (in Browns books for example) - it would at least eliminate many makers as their number ranges would be way off for the likely period when the gun was made.

Regards
Russell

Hello
I'm grateful for your your comments. Trying to clarify some points that were raised, I searched all the gun’s surface with a magnifying glass and I found a small word (letters of 1 mm size) engraved in half-circle: Casteres . Tried to google this word and found it is a French name, in some cases from aristocratic families. I’ve uploaded a photo showing where this word was engraved.
http://inscription.notlong.com
(Doug: the Fotki website seems to show the photos for as long as one wants, unless the slideshow mode is activated).
I don't know if this relevant as I wasn’t able to correlate this name "Casteres" to anything related to guns and I didn’t found any other words or marks, or evidence of an erased mark – but this is a real possibility, I’m no expert.
Concerning the history of this gun: my grandfather was an obsessive hunter and shooter. He owned several very good shotguns (in different occasions he had one Holland & Holland and one Greener). He bought and sold these guns frequently and he knew a lot about them. Since my childhood (I’m 56) I remember that he kept this gun with a very special care, and he never let me use it. He always said I would inherit it, and so it happened (my brothers kept other guns). He never disclosed the brand of the gun, I don’t know why – he called it the “hammer shotgun”. He lived in Portugal, where the gun is now, and I think he owned this gun at least since 1950.
Thanks again for your valuable advice
Joao

Joao,

I think John may be barking up the right tree. Didn't the proof house at Gardone val trompin use a five pointed star for final proof? This gun could have been made by the british trade and finished in italy??? Just a thought. Nice looking gun shoot it in good health.
Regards,
Michael

The Whitworth trade mark is the "Wheat Sheaf"this means the barrels are made from Whitworth fluid compressed steel.[Patented 1865]
Whitworth did manufacture and market shotguns under their own name. I have seen several examples of same,including a 12,G double hammer gun.
It has been suggested that Purdey may have made this gun. The serial number on the gun 6181 fits the Purdey numbering seqence for the year 1861. A call to Purdeys would seem to be justified.