doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com un-named German Gun

Hi All,
I have an unusual (I know these German guns are often unusual), it odes not have any name on it and is serial numbered only on one part the action that I can find. It certainly is not a high quality gun and has seen lots of use. It is a 16ga o/u with single kirsten lock. The barrel is marked with an N proof mark and the word Nitro it has the date code 424 or april 1924. it also has proof marks S and U the barrel number 705 and initials RZ. It is a Rat but the barrels are clean and I like the underlever. Anyone venture a guess who may have made it?
Thanks, Jeff

If you are sure of the "RZ", the tubes would have been made and assembled by R. Zimmermann of Suhl. It may have been made by or for Carl Zimmerman of Zella-Mehlis, whose craftsmen were considered by the Suhl craftsmen to be a rung below. Carl Zimmerman began in 1857 and peddled everything hunting. This could be one of his last examples as I don't think his firm survived the aftermath of the effects of WWI. More than likely finished by a Zimmermann and there may other marks to build a solid case. The "705" is probably the 705th to pass thru the proofhouse that year. Any other interesting marks to note the specific proofhouse? The shape of the receiver, the Greener safety, the position of what looks to be the cocking indicators both in combo with the underlever hints at a Treff action with the coil spring strikers in a metal block attached to the top tang. Usually there's an odd screw thru the top tang that along with the position of the cocking indicators which gives it away as being a Treff action but I don't know that I remember one being fitted to an O/U.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I will allow myself a bit of nitpicking. I wouldn't say this is "not a high quality gun", but rather "not a high grade gun". IMHO of course.
With kind regards,
Jani

Hi Raimey and Jani
The RZ is clear and unmistakable in fact it is the clearest marks on the barrels. There are no other marks that I can find except the number 31 on the tubes. There are no screws coming down thru the long top tang only one coming from below, I will try to take a better pic of that area. Thanks so much for your input your knowledge and speculation on the German Guns is very impressive. Jani agreed not a high grade gun but also I did not feel that the general finishing of the metal was as good as most German guns, but still neat, look at the long triangular metal part that activates the extractors.
Jeff

Thanks Jeff G. and could you post a pic of the left side of the tubes which seems to have an odd feature like something one might see on a Robert Schrader, but he was in Gottingen and not in Suhl. Since there doesn't seem to be the mark of the Zella Saint Blasii-Mehlis proofhouse, I'm going to guess it passed thru the Suhl proofhouse. Recknagel comes to mind and there was a firm by the name of Recknagel & Zimmermann who just may have peddled it. Similar to Carl Zimmermann, and there's always a possibility that it was connected to Carl Zimmermann, Recknagel & Zimmermann doesn't seem to have been in business much past the end of WWI. If you ever have the stock off, please take a few pics of the action.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hi Raimey,
What is the odd feature you mention, is it the part that houses the extractor. I will get the gun apart and photograph.
Thanks, Jeff

Hi Raimey
These are the barrel pics




I have not pulled it apart yet.
Jeff G

Hi Raimey
These are Pics of the inside, what type of action do you think it is.


Jeff G.

Jeff G.:
I can only make a stab at it and it looks like some sort of hybrid. It's set-up like a O/U triggerplate action but the hammers and V springs are on the frame. Very interesting and nice effort. Any additional markings or stamps on the frame or triggerplate? It has a Kersten bolt but is there any additional underlug(Purdey type) lockup? I'd assume that underlever trips something else?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

From the pics it seems to have notches in the underlug for double underbolts as a guess. Also I was of the opinion that "705" was for the 705th gun proofed in April, not for the whole year.