doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Info on French-marked BLNE?

A friend is interested in a BLNE 12 marked "Pidault Sucr. Paris" on the left barrel and "Houllier-Blanchard" on the right. It is a field grade gun with straight grip, splinter FE, and DT, and a case colored action with light border scrolls (well done). Has 27" metric length barrels and a swamped rib. He didn't give me all the markings but here's what he had:

Belgian crown over
E
LG

proofs on reciever water tables, a rhombus lozenge with 12 over C inside it , a crown over PV, a marking "d = m/m," another marking P1K416. One barrel flat marked 65/20.6, another 17.3 and 10.3. He says that the barrel flat markings are fainter than the water table markings making it appear that the barrels may have been re-finished long ago.

Any idea who actually made this gun (which I assume was a Belgian gun sold by a French armeury in Paris)? Does the 65/20.6 marking indicate 65mm chambers?

Mike:

Here's a little info at Littlegun's site: http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20francaise...anchar%20gb.htm . Houllier-Blanchar, or their heirs and assigns, sourced Belgium for this example. There may be initials or a stamp that give a clue as to the maker. The "65" notes the chamber length in mm and 20.5 is the diameter just forward of the rim also in mm. By the way Houllier is noted as being the gunmaker to have fully developed the pinfire cartridge in circa 1846.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks very much, Raimey. If I can get the rest of the markings, I'll post them, too. A nice, if ordinary, little gun.

Houllier Blanchar was founded in 1816 in Paris. They held one patent in 1849 for a pinfire cartridge. They exhibited in Paris in 1839, 1844, 1849, 1855 they received a 1st place medal, 1867, 1878 & 1889. They also exhibited in London 1851 & 1853. New York in 1851.

The gun seems to imply some relationship between Houllier Blanchar and Pirault. Unfortunately, there were several Pirault's active in France. The largest, sometimes spelled as Piraut, was a huge military arms maker. They produced small arms, canons, etc. As such they had their own forge and mill.

This 12ga was black powder proofed between 1893-1924. It seems to have been resubmitted for nitro proof since 1959. The barrels weighed 1.416 Kg (3.21 lbs) at time of proof. The chambers were 65mm. The 20.6 is the diameter of the chamber. Please check the other numbers as they represent choke.

The gun was made in Belgium for Houllier Blanchar. The maker's mark may be on the guns some where, or not. Pictures would be easier than descriptions.

You can find the Belgian proof marks and maker's marks here:
http://damascus-barrels.com/bp.html

Pete

Thanks, Pete. I'll try to get pix but probably that'll happen only if my friend buys the gun (unlikely--he has the usual predjudices against "short shells"....). I suspect that the makers mark may be a marking on the water table and right barrel flat which he has "attempted to draw"! To me his sketch resembles nothing so much as a rectangle with a....sperm in it. Perhaps I might extrapolate that it is a rectangle with a stylized sickle in it? I'll look back at your reference to see if that rings a bell; didn't see it the first time (won't look for the other item....).

Could this be the mark of the barrel maker, or would that be on the barrels only?

Mike,

One maker could have made the barrels and another the action. Or 1 could have done the whole gun. It is a best guess in any case.

Pete

Pete; What are you basing this on. It appears to have been originally Nitro Proofed to me. The chamber dia (20.6) is normally found only on guns receiving the Nitro Proof & was discontinued in 1924 with the new chamber marking. Lion over PV seems to have been introduced for military rarms in 1898 & for all arms after 1903. This would thus seem to me to be a gun which was built & smokeless powder proofed between 1903-1924.

PS; Double check that 10.3, bet its an 18.3 (.720") for bore with a choke dia of 17.3 (.681) which would be a Full @ .039" (1mm) constriction.

Miller,

I went over it again.

-- 12 over C in a diamond was used from 1898 to 1924.
-- They stopped using decimals for the barrel weight in 1924.
-- The Crown over PV was not used until 1959.

Doing these by description only is always interesting. I believe you are correct about it being originally nitro proofed. Especially since it was done for a French company.

Pete