doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Pre-64 Winchester Finish -- What did they use?

I have had a customer ask me to restore the finish on a Pre-64 Model 70 with the exact finish that the factory used, or at least as close as possible. I have used Pilkington's Pre-64 stain to achieve to look of the Pre-64 guns before, but I've never been asked to duplicate the type of finish and the look before. Any advice or information would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Hack

This is how I restore a Pre-64 winchester stock. In Rule's book he describes how Winchester originally did it. My variation is as close as I know how to get to Winchester's. After sanding the stock I use an alcohol based red walnut stain. This stain comes in a concentrated formula and is diluted with alcohol. It can be found at better woodworking stores. It also comes in a water based version that works just as well. Rule said that Winchester used an alcohol based stain, so I use the same. I spray the stain with my HVLP spray system. It can also be applied with a rag. Next, I spray a coat of semi-gloss lacquer using my HVLP system. I then fill the pores with a mixture of varnish and rotten stone. I darken this mixture with a small amount of artist oil paint (VanDyke brown). I have tried commercially made pore fillers but have found that my own works better. I use a polished putty knife to apply and remove the filler. After the filler has dried I lightly sand any excess filler and apply another coat of lacquer. I then sand lightly with 400 grit wet/dry paper and recut the checkering. After the checkering is recut, I lightly stain the checkering with the same alcohol based dye. I then apply the final top coat of semi-gloss lacquer. A good quality HVLP spray system can produce a finish that to me is identical to Winchester factory work. Good results can be achieved with the lacquer that come in an aerosol can too. You can send me a private e-mail if you have any questions. Hope this helps

I've never used these people and it looks like they are no longer restoring winchesters, but do still have the winchester red oil available. I'm pretty sure the orig. were finished with oil. http://www.winrest.com lartay9@aol.com 520-403-1080.

I have to stand corrected. Apparently winchester did use a varnish or lacquer finish. The one's I've looked at didn't seem to be finished that way and pores weren't filled. They looked like a couple of coats of oil were put on.

I have used garnet shellac to duplicate the red toned finish on Parker and LC Smith guns, of course that is what Parker and Smith used.

bill

Galazan's offers a "Pre-64 Winchester" finish, which I believe (not positive) is a varnish. That is the look my customer wants to achieve, so I ordered some, and I'll try it.

I apreciate everyone's input.

Thanks,

Hack

Galazan's offers a "Pre-64 Winchester" finish, which I believe (not positive) is a varnish. That is the look my customer wants to achieve, so I ordered some, and I'll try it.

I apreciate everyone's input.

Thanks,

Hack

I think the red oil was more popular than the varnish at Winchester. The first varnish that Winchester used had a problem of eggshelling and the people at Winchester didn't really care too much for it. I once had the pleasure of talking with John Durkin on the phone. He was a checkerer for Winchester in the Custom Shop. He told me that Ted Williams once came into the Custom Shop, complaining about the varnish chipping on his Model 21. John told him that what he really needed was some of their red oil and if he waited a few minutes, he would try to sneak and get some for him while no one was looking. And right then, Ted Williams started screaming, "Hey!! We need some of that fu--ing red oil over here!!" John said he about had a heart attack and thought he would get fired. He had a few good stories he shared with me and I really enjoyed talking woth him. But, the red oil from John Kay should be the original from Winchester. So, you might want to try it. Good luck.

There certainly are collectors more knowledgeable than myself. However, after over 20 years of collecting and restoring classic American guns it is my opinion that true varnish was rarely if ever used by American gun manufactures as stock finish. I think the confusion come from the fact that the word varnish has been used as a generic term for any finish that could be "built-up". This includes shellac, lacquer, and true varnish. Prior to WWII shellac was the finsh of choice. At the time shellac was often referred to as varnish (although it is not true varnish as we think of varnish today). Shellac is alcohol based and dries very quickly. It was the choice of finish for American gun manufactures because a stock could be finished with it in a relatively short period of time (because it dired so quickly). Varnish takes hours to dry completely. After its developement, lacquer quickly became the finish of choice. Like shellack it dries quickly. When lacquer is sprayed many stocks can be finished in less time that a single stock with shellac. To confuse things more, lacquer was has also been generically referred to as varnish. Most American gun manufactures offered an "oil finish" which would have been several coats of boiled linseed oil. The so called "pre-64" finishes sold today have little to do with what Winchester actually used to finish gunstocks. It is just a clever marketing ploy to sell an over priced product. If you want it to look correct you need to use what was originally used. For a pre-64 Model 70 that would have been sprayed lacquer unless a customer special ordered an oil finish. In the post WWII era special order oil finishes were rarely done. Many Model 70's that survive in original condition today can appear to have an oil finish. This is due to the nature of the lacquer used by Winchester and other manufactuers of the time. The lacquer was reatively soft because of the wax that was used in manufacturing it. This causes the original stock sheen to be lost over time and can appear to be an oil finish.

The Winchester Repeating Arms Co. was formed in 1866. Any discussion of the firms stock finishes should be in context of a given time period.

It always surprises me to realize how little is truly known about the companies manufacturing methods.