doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com German Cartridge Identification help please

A little help please on a Rimmed German Cartridge that I am trying to identify. Gun in question is a pre WW1 Bartels German Double Rifle with Henry style rifling. Barrel flats are marked 118/35 which is a fairly std pre war 9.3 x 72R indication. Sluging the bore reveals .358 diameter. (Yes really... .358) Now this is where it starts to get even stranger. A fire formed case (using a std 9.3 x 72R cartridge with inert filler) shows the following dimensions:
Head: .426
Shoulder .398
Neck: .390

The chamber appears to be based on the 9.3 x 72R case with a .008 shoulder! Neck length is fairly short. I have determined that it is NOT the following: a 9.3 x 72R Sauer, a 9.3 x 72R Normal or a 9 x 71 peterlongo. Research thru Dixons European Sporting cartridges, COW and Custom Cartridges by Ken Howell have not lead to any definite conclusions. A bit more info; There is not a reamer step to indicate where the cartridge ends but the chamber cast does show a long lead into the rifling. Not uncommon in German guns in my experience. Any help on identifying this cartridge would be sincerely appreciated!

Jeff

My take on this is that it's just one of the umpteen gunsmith-peculiar variations of the 9,3x72R.

There were no standards for 9,3x72R cartridge dimensions back in those days (If you have Dixon's books you have seen his write up) and since the 9,3x72R was one of the most often chambered hunting rounds it shows the most variation in chambers. Sometimes I think no two of 'em were ever made the same!

My experience slugging bores of quite a few 9,3x72R barrels is that they tend most often to run much smaller than the oft-quoted .364", mostly being somewhere within a couple of thousandths of .360".

I'm going to have to fall in line behind Steven and agree with him. Actually I've seen more 0.358"+/- diameter 9.3X72R, or other 360 BPE based, than I have the actual 9.3mm variant. But that bore diameter of 118/35 is almost always a telltale sign of the smaller diameter.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks guys! Looks like a set of custom dies are in order. And I REALLY appreciate your expert help! Jeff

Hello Jeff

you might have a 9x57r/360
this case is based on the 9.3x72r
this case has a slight shoulder.
I have a 8x57r/360 which uses the 9.3x72r case shortened and necked down to .318 for the 8 mm bullet and the cases have a shoulder. since you use a .358 bullet the shoulder would be less.
do a chamber cast then you will know exactly what you have.
doing a chamber cast is real easy. any questions I will glad to help.
ralph

Can you insert a 9,3x72R Normal case and close the action ? There are 2 styles of 9,3x72R before the cartridge was "normalized" around 1912. I have the 9,3x72R "D" (Deutsch) version, (in a Zella-Mehlis Drilling). Modern RWS/S&B/Norma brass will not go in the last 1/2". That is, until the empty cases have been sized in a special C.H. FL die. Standard RCBS dies are set up for the 9,3x72R "E" (English) version,(so-called because they're based on a British .360 BP case). If this is your problem, you measure the chamber cast every 10mm from the rim you should be able to determine where the taper stops. If at 40mm, not more, you might have the "D" version. If so, the special CH dies are the cure.

Before normalization, the probability exists that about every chamber was a slight bit different. Early on in many cases the end user was supplied with every thing he needed to use the tool. By the time that the general public could afford a longarm due to mechanization, many of the hunters may have not really known the exact chambering of their multipurpose longarm and depended on an outfitter or supply house as an ammo source. Current there's a 2 or 3 part segment in GGCA publication #39 of Waidmannsheil dealing with German cartridges based on the 360 BPE by Mike Ford that suggests that certain current ammo is designed to span the varying bullet diameter dimensions.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hey everyone....it turns out that the rifle is chambered as I first described it with a .358 diameter bullet. A call to CH4D dies and Mr. Chuck identified the piece as being chambered for the 9 x 72R (NOT a 9.3 x 72R) (Also, this rifles chamber is based on the English case and not the Deutsche case) Any way he had a die set in stock and it is on the way to me now. Chuck said that he had made up five of these 9 x 72R die sets a few years ago and has been selling one set every other year or so. There is a pretty good selection of .358 diamter jacketed bullets but a search reveals very little for a .358 hard cast lead bullet. So...we will see how the rifle likes the jacketed bullets. Danke fur sie halfen ! Jeff

Interesting. I wonder where he picked up the 9x72R designation. There is a 8x72R and although it may exist, I can't say that I've seen that designation.

Kind Regards,


Raimey
rse

Something I should have added. You may find that the 9,3x72R ammo these days has a rim that is too thick for your chamber. So the case, once it's been through a FL die, will go all the way into the chamber but not the last little bit. If that's the problem, you'll need to either turn down the case rim or deepen the gun's extractor recess. I'd suggest the former but you'll need to turn it down from the front so as not to weaken the case head. You'll also need to make up a spiggott to fit the primer pocket and support the case. At least, that's how my gunsmith went about it, should that prove to be the same problem with your rifle.