doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Question for Michael Petrov or anyone else.

Gary, one of the drawbacks in the Hiwall set trigger system is the fact that when you fire it the rear trigger has to "Fly" upward and smack the Sear to disengage it from the Hammer and let it go. This is time lost. The second issue is Sear drag. The Sear is actually riding on the outboard radius on the back surface of the Hammer. That is why there is a fly in the Hammer in order to keep the Sear from re-engaging in the half cock notch.
This drag has got to have an affect on Hammer or lock time. In a plain trigger Hiwall when you break the Trigger in firing you will continue to pull the Trigger back and keep the Sear completely off the Hammer. I believe JD and I had this conversation many years ago on the old Schuetsen MSN site when he did his testing. As a result I did some bench UGH! testing and got results much like his although I did not test as extensivly as he did. Well enough. HTH Regards, FITZ.

One more thing to try if summer hits this place. I tried four Ballards with DST's today in the vise and found that I could shoot two of them without setting the trigger and the other two have such a strong pull I'm not ever going to consider them. No! I'm not going to "Work On" the triggers. I depend on the DST in bench shooting a lot for when I'm watching the wind flags and when it's time to "GO", it goes. Most of my shooting is lead bullets with smokeless powder at 100 & 200 yards. I'm not going to start looking for a smaller coin just yet, but I will give it a go.

I probably need to add that almost all my rifles have some sort of set trigger, if available for them, because I love the set option so much!

Gert (MartiniBelgian) caused me untold heartache and discontent by showing us a photo of his cute little Martini Cadet with the DST setup inside the original guard. No way can I find one of those over here, and no way will I attempt to make a duplicate, I'll just hafta be consumed by envy!

As I said before, testing continues. Next project is an attempt to actually measure lock times in a Winchester wall action. My friend The Green Frog has generously donated a scrap low wall receiver and I have enough orphan & temporarily-cannibalized parts to make a stab at it. We will test all 3 wall set mechanisms (unset, SST, CCDST and Schuetzen DST) with all types of hammers including speedlocks; also some hammers, triggers and kickers made from unobtainium as well as a setup using both leaf and coil mainsprings at the same time. A make-&-break circuit with an oscilloscope should give some real-world time comparisons if I'm bright enough to figure it out. I'm in the process of designing & building a sturdy test stand now but my tuit supply always seems to be inadequate these days.

FITZ has mentioned on another forum how he has already tried the 2-spring setup with good results although his thumb is a LOT stronger now since cocking the hammer with both springs (VBG)!
Regards, Joe

Vibration should be detectable on an oscilloscope with a strong permanent magnet and coil setup. This likely will serve to time the firing cycle but direct timing is going to be more difficult and might better be accomplished with a high speed camera. It would certainly allow comparison of vibrations of the systems. I have a dual trace 30mghz oscilloscope, unfortunately it doesn't have capture and would likely need more photography to capture the cycle.

Jerry Liles

Guys: Good Grief! AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH! Oscilloscopes? Permanent Magnets and Coil Set Ups, Photography[not involving scantily clad girls]! Pull up a chair, sit down and let me tell you a story...a true one. When I was in high school I worked in a stereo shop after school and one day the owner who liked his beer invited me after closing on Friday to help him count the receipts and have a Coors [I was 17 and about to go to the R.S.V.N.]. We lived in Georgia and yeah I know just like "Smokey and the Bandit" he had a trucker friend bring Coors back in his refrigerated truck.
While we counted he laughed and said anyone who spent more than $200 [1969 DOLLARS] for a stereo was a fool! I asked why and he said the human ear could not reproduce the sounds the more expensive stereo made and the money was wasted! [Hold on while I test this Knob Creek for impurities!!!] Well I guess you guys have gotten my point by now...no it is'nt to drink Coors even though that's not a bad thing to take away from this diatribe. IT'S THAT THE WEAKEST LINK IN SHOOTING ALWAYS HAS BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE THE GUY BEHIND THE GUN! All the DST'S in the world won't make up for a pumping heart, expanding lungs, exhaling breath, contracting and relaxing muscles and just general shimmies and shakes!I grew up in a gun store and I always laugh when I think about how far optics have come since I was a kid in the 50's. Most $50 scopes now are better than anything we had back then, even the vaunted Weaver K series that did'nt gather light for sheet but IT WAS WONDERFUL FOR ITS' TIME! Now the scopes are state of the art and my eyes are in a state of antiquity. Well I hear my wife's looking for me and the dog [GSP, Dixie Belle] and we're hiding in the "Pout House" as my wife calls it. My cabin's up the moutain a ways from our home [Not by accident]. In closing I leave you with this thought... accuracy is a wonderful thing but don't let it come at the price of enjoyment. I used to reload, keep records, compare loads etc. Then one day I realized I could do so much more of things I originally bought the guns for... hunting, varminting, plinking, just walking and seeing what popped up, if I did'nt worry about wringing every bit of perfection from each one. Remember one day your body will not effect your shooting accuracy at all, but on the other hand a DST won't either, as your shooting days here will be over. SEE YA OUT AT THE WORKSHOP! JERRY aka Alvin Linden #1

Jerry AKA Alvin, I'm sure glad you got that off your chest!

I gotta confess I'm somewhat ticked off at your response though. I personally am not in search of better match accuracy, my eyes have long since disqualified me from any achievements there and I'm about as far away from a 'gamesman' as you can get. No, my testing is strictly for my own enjoyment and education.

And for ammunition to use around the cracker barrel, so to speak, as we confabulate with our colleagues on this forum (G). I've seen big-time arguments in the past over things similar to those I'm testing now, with some very adamantly dogmatic defenses of various untested & unproven positions and opinions. Some I agreed with, some I didn't. Now that I'm retired I figure I have time to do exactly what I want, and sometimes I want to test. Sorry you think it's a waste of time, but after all it's MY time!
You have a good day now, y'hear?
Regards, Joe

Joe: I certainly did not mean to offend you, I was just making an observation about one not seeing the forest for the trees. However your point is well taken. Oliver Wendell Holmes said "Your right to swing your fist, stops where my nose begins" Last time I checked my probosis was just fine. Test away my friend! I hope it brings you the enjoyment, actually using my rifles in the field, brings me! Warmest Regards Jerry

J.D., I sent you an Email, as you requested, but have not heard back.

Jerry, no problem, as you can see I also live in the South where we can shoot all year outside if we want. I use my rifles regularly in the field, in fact most of my customs are hunting or varmint rifles, I own exactly one dedicated match rifle and it's a 19th century original that I've restored to factory letter specs. My only daily transportation is an F-250 4X4 with mudgrips and winch, very necessary if driving very far off-road around here. I gotta admit, though, that nowadays I dog-off most of my outdoor shooting soon after Memorial Day and don't resume it much until around Columbus Day, it's just too durn hot & miserable and as you already know, everything down here bites! In the Summer I generally shoot at a friend's 500-yd private range with a large fan at the bench, and sometimes ride (truck has A/C!) the levees' semi-public roads looking for crows & armadilloes. Another friend has an 800-yd range beside his Ag-plane strip, and (sshhhh!) is furnished ammo by the local catfish farmers in order to shoot their (ssshhhh!) unfortunately-federally-protected egrets.....

The testing is just for my own info, to verify my own opinions if possible, and I guess some (a lot) of it is just for the right to be able to say (as ammo in any discussion) that I've been there & done that. At Froggie's suggestion I plan to skeletonize the scrap low wall receiver to reveal the action's inner workings to an observer, and will eventually send it and the test stand back to him for whatever use he can think of. Heck, I won't even mind if he wants to give it to the ASSRA!
Regards, Joe

Sorry Don, will reply ASAP! Regards, Joe