doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Value; pigeon guns v. game guns

To my knowledge, you are quite correct, Mike. I'd add that not all big guns are pigeon guns and not all pigeon guns are of high grade finish. Most big guns are fowlers and relativly plain of finish. However, there are both high finis fowlers and plain finish pigeon guns. Some of the heavy guns were made as dual use, fowler during the week and a suitable pigeon gun on the weekend. The far stronger issue from buying a "pigeon" gun is to buy a gun that suits your purpose and fits you with the minimum amount of modification.

Thanks again Dean-and if Mal is a friend of yours, he's OK in my book too. I did include James D. Julia with Jack Puglisi and Herschell Chadick at first- if we are here to 'split hairs' as Julia's has the BATF and the 4473, and guns are sold under his "hammer time", he might be a dealer, in a manner of speaking. I did read about the Czar's Parker, after Jack bought it from the Julia auction, do you know where it is now.

I added the note about friend, albiet retired with his daughter Cam running the "store" in Findlay, OH- Bill Jaqua. I am sure many others on this site have known and dealt with a similar person of high character and integrity in their "neck of the woods", as I am Ohio boy, and Bill is a Findlay "native son", he's the one I know best.

With an uncertain economy and many "sharks on patrol" on this and other gun auction sites, if I had to pay a tad more to deal "face to face" with an established and reputable dealer, I would consider that $ well spent. Thanks again for your kind note Dean, much appreciated. Let me know if you are ever looking for some "high end" fly fishing tackle, I still "network" a little and perhaps can help you out-as long as we stay out of FL.

Oooops! Put this in the wrong thread. Well, I'm adding it to the Purdey ML question, but leaving it here as it seems interesting and we do have a game weight gun vs a pigeon gun, albiet ML's.


The links below ar to the upcoming Holt's auction. The first gun, JOSEPH LANG & SONS, LONDON,A FINE CASED 11-BORE DOUBLE-BARRELLED PERCUSSION LIVE PIGEON GUN, serial no. 3875, is estimated at £7,000-9,000

http://auctions.holtandcompany.co.uk/asp...8&saletype=

The second gun, ALEXR. MARTIN, GLASGOW,A SCOTTISH 12-BORE DOUBLE-BARRELLED PERCUSSION SPORTING GUN, circa 1840, is estimated at £300-500

http://auctions.holtandcompany.co.uk/asp...5&saletype=

The devil here is in the details. Anyone care to take a shot at explaining the difference in estimation? I could guess, but some of you may know.

A guess:

The estimate on the Lang is very optimistic. I think £3,000-4,000 is more like it. Plus, it looks like the Lang is a top-quality gun that's in excellent shape and in its original case with a lot of accessories. It's also a London maker with a lot of name recognition.

The Martin looks like a medium to low-grade gun. It has cut bbls and it is not cased. And Glasgow ain't London.

OWD

This topic, should have been titled - Searching for reasons my gun, is a pigeon gun!
Hell, my very long gone Merkel #8 coulda fit the bill, and it was just a heavy gun with slideclips.

OK Lowell- and you spelled the "flying *&^% wagon" bird properly, Pigeon- now Pidgeon, that was the late actor Walter Pidgeon. Actually saw a "counterfeited Model 12" Pigeon Grade with a rather crappy looking chicken etched on the magazine tube extension and it was spelled Pidgeon Grade- tried to explain to the "dude" at the table at the gun show that was not correct, but as they say, you can't outshoot your gun, outwalk your boots or win an argument with a fool (or one who has been fooled)-

The shotgun writer for Field & Stream picked his 50 best shotguns- Yup the overpriced Limey Purdey was No. 1 (at just 6 figures, in case you won the Power Ball) and the Kraut Merkel was in the last sector. He mentioned receipt of a Merkel 12 O/U "for evaluation" and when he couldn't get the forearm on when assemblying the shotgun, called and spoke with a Merkel gunsmith that said "You have to hit it very very hard"- Humm-sounds like the old shop saying I heard years ago "Never use force, just get a bigger hammer from the tool crib". I'm NOT an over-under man, they all feel like a 2x4 turned sideways in my hands, but then, I've never handled a Woodward or a Boss-C'est La Vie!!

I just bought a Purdey a couple of months ago. Vent rib, tight choked, weighing in at 7.6 pounds. I was not looking for a game gun.

I am over the moon with it! ;-)

RWTF, Malcolm MacGregor needs no endorsement from the likes of me. He is well known and highly respected in any and all shooting circles involving good (fine) doubles.

Thanks Dean. I have never heard of him, so that's why I segued back to you, as you know waaaay more guys in the double gun world that I do, or ever will. Does he write for one of the "trade" magazines? Is he a Scotsman? I know of Michael McIntosh- I have his books Best Guns (first ed.) and the first gun book, The Best Seven ever made-, and of course, the lates Gene Hill and Rudy Etchen.

I live in a rural area, the few "two holers" for the shotgun area I see afield are mainly Over-Unders. We had a "Tower" or "European" shoot at the pheasant club last Nov. I had just bought the older Smith live bird gun (12 of course-no other gauge exists for me except maybe the 10)32" Imp. Mod. and Full with factory vetilated rib, DT, Ejectors, non-auto safety, Hawkins pad- one and 1/4 lbs. lighter than my previous Fox HE- we had 16 "guns" for the Morning Tower shoot- ten birds, then a "break" and you rotate positiions. I counted 7 Over-Unders (mostly 12 Gauge Brownings and Berettas) 5 pumpguns (all Remington 870's)three auto-loaders (all Benellis) and moi- the only "gunner" with a side-by-side. And we have members who (prior to Bernie Madoff anyway) wrote their income in 7 figs.

I was "high gun" for the Tower shoot, also shot the two "money birds" which won a bonus hunt for me and a guest (you are invited if you ever get to the State of Grand-Stand-Holm, by the way) actually, am taking a Vet from the nearby Grand Rapids veterans Home for another Tower event in late March-but I'd still keep the invite open for you- you are a really good guy in a world that seems to have forgotten the "guy Code" IMO..

Anyway, there are those who might look down on preserve birds,as "canned" hunts but it is cheaper than going out to SD for a packaged hunt, and I can take my one hunting son-in-law, as he can go on a Sat. or Sun. but to take a week off work to go Out West for birds-might be a bit "snug" at this point in time.

I also carried that Big Smith all afternoon for the "pick-up" hunt- 340 acres- 4 sectors and we all had guides with good Labs- I go in a lot of "2nd. barrel work" and that Smith balances so well, I didn't mind the 8 lbs. My "$" gun, the one shotgun I will Always take when the chips are on the table- weighs 7 and 1/2 lbs. and I carry that all day w/o breaking a sweat-Yup- you guessed it- the 12 gauge 1937 Model 12 30" Full-

Now-, Dean, please answer my question if you can. Do you know where the fabled Czar's Parker is now residing?

The shotgun writer for Field & Stream picked his 50 best shotguns- Yup the overpriced Limey Purdey was No. 1 (at just 6 figures, in case you won the Power Ball) and the Kraut Merkel was in the last sector. He mentioned receipt of a Merkel 12 O/U "for evaluation" and when he couldn't get the forearm on when assemblying the shotgun, called and spoke with a Merkel gunsmith that said "You have to hit it very very hard"- Humm-sounds like the old shop saying I heard years ago "Never use force, just get a bigger hammer from the tool crib". ________________________________________________________________OOne of the problems with this observation is that there are so many variables to the make-up of a "quality" shotgun; thus, the continuing viewpoint on this board that it is the gun not the name that needs to be assessed. I think that this view is often futile as it requires one to bet against the marketplace, which says that Purdeys, for instance, are the best guns and therefore are the most valuable. That said, however, there were at least a few years (decades?) when Purdey quality reached a fairly low ebb, especially mechanically. One could argue that the Engish best guns' current imitation of Italian guns also represents a fairly low ebb, either in creativity or aesthetics. In any event, in assessing Merkels and other German guns, the date of manufacture is absolutely critical. Clearly, for instance, guns from pre 1960ish are head and shoulders above those currently manufactured in Germany and German guns (Merkel, Greifelt, Sauer and the dozens of other quality Suhl manufacturers that disappeared in WW II) of pre-war manufacture are the equal of any other country's. They're rarer too. I know this is not reflected in the market and I don't expect that it ever will be.