October
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
Who's Online Now
7 members (Crockett, AZshot, 67galaxie, jlb, Jeremy Pearce, 1 invisible), 535 guests, and 3 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics39,502
Posts562,142
Members14,587
Most Online9,918
Jul 28th, 2025
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 4 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,449
Likes: 278
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,449
Likes: 278
As many upgrades as I have seen over the years, the only ones that would fool anyone but an idiot are the Del Grego-Runge upgrades and the vast majority of those have the Del Grego-Runge signatures engraved on the gun. If you have one you would like to have documented, feel free to contact me and I will locate the signatures for you. I have never seen an identified upgrade that would fool a serious collector that was not done by Robert Runge. Now that the records are available, it is even more difficult to put one over on a serious student of the brand.

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,672
Likes: 4
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,672
Likes: 4
Yes, the Runge DelGrego upgrades are probably the ones to be concerned with. How many did they do? What years were they done? What 'upgrade" services did they offer? How were they marketed? I have seen a couple and they were superb. I especially remember a sbt A1S upgrade.Wonderful engraving and stunning case color,at least to me.I would imagine that in the early postwar years that if you wanted a "new fancy Parker" these 2 gentleman would have been capable of providing as fine a gun as ever left the factory.Problem is the unsigned ones,I guess,if we're talking about guns being sold as original pre-war production.

RHD45 #132518 01/25/09 09:01 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,449
Likes: 278
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,449
Likes: 278
That's why we buy the letters and study the guns. A collector without years of experience fooling with these guns shouldn't be buying the "big ones". That goes for Colts, Winchesters, Ferraris, you name it.

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,672
Likes: 4
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,672
Likes: 4
The question is are there any Runge/DelGrego upgrades for which there are no records and are unsigned?

RHD45 #132527 01/25/09 10:00 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,609
Likes: 14
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,609
Likes: 14
One can only presume there are. And this is not limited to Del Grego and Runge, to be totally fair, but as Bill has stated, their work is easily mistaken for original because they both worked on the Parker Gun project at Remington before the war. Often as not, we see Parkers that appear to the trained eye to be upgrades and the serial numbers are among those in the missing records. I don't say this to cast dispersion on anyone but simply as a cautionary note to be extra careful when considering the purchase of a graded Parker for which there are no known existing Parker records.

Last edited by DAM16SXS; 01/25/09 10:02 PM.
DAM16SXS #132528 01/25/09 10:08 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,672
Likes: 4
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,672
Likes: 4
i really appreciate the input from Mr.Murphy and Mr.Muderlak as they are both very learned when it comes to Parkers. I have a keen academic interest in this but have nothing against anyone or any agenda I wish to further.Thanks again.Bob

GregSY #132532 01/25/09 10:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 318
EDM Offline
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 318
Originally Posted By: GregSY
Ed, Were the fellows you mentioned allowed access because they were nice guys or because they presented themselves under the auspices of the PGCA? Makes a big diff.


The Parker Story crew went into Remington's archives before the PGCA was founded in 1993. A second group was part of a research team who gathered around Ron Kirby after I went to Meriden in 1995 and wrote about it. Ron (NC) and, as I recall, Charlie Herzog (MO), Richard Hoover (AL), Sam Tomlin (VA), and Ed Kapelski (MO), flew or drove to Meriden in June 1996 on a research expedition. They got into the attic of the old Parker office building and dug over 1,000 work tags out of the century-old coal dust.

Meanwhile TPS authors had computerized their Stock Book copies to do the number-crunching for their two-volume book, which was released in 1998 and 2000. At some point they donated the photocopies to the PGCA and Ron started doing Research Letters. As I stated above, Ron and others went to Ilion in 1998 to photocopy the Order Books. The group consisted of the PGCA volunteers (named above), and the intent was to complete the documentation to the fullest extent in order to enhance the Research Letters, which had become popular.

The PGCA is not a public utility; it is a group of people bound by a mutual interest in owning and knowing about Parker guns. There were at least 20 different people from a dozen states, many of whom had not met the others prior to the year's researching. The idea that these people somehow formed a conspiracy do befuddle all the people who didn't participate in the painstaking and expensive work is really over the top.

TPS authors presented themselves under the "auspices" of using the information to write a book. Other casual Parker people who just wanted to satisfy personal curiosity were respectfully declined. Key to TPS's entree were CDR. Gunther's articles in the Gun Report.

I should mention that when I was at Remington in spring 1996, having just finished the M/S for The "Old Reliable," I was offered access to the Parker records, but declined because others were using the records for their book and I didn't want to be accused of circumventing them. To this day I have never seen the originals or photocopies. And in fact, I never even looked at a page of TPS until the M/S for my most recent book, Shooting Flying, was complete in April 2006. I did not want to be influenced by other people's work.

Ron and his team were invited to Ilion in 1998 under the "auspices" of the PGCA; Remington does not allow walk-ins to search the records. The Remington Society, the PGCA, and certain accredited authors can apply...

As to the fear on the part of Remington that allowing access and publishing the records would lead to litigation...well, it just hasn't happened. In theory, any authentication disputes that could be helped along by original business records could conceivably lead to discovery subpoenas, Remington employees and lawyers spending time...and time is money, etc. But it just didn't happen. Thankfully non-legal minds prevailed.

In the final analysis, it does not make "..a big diff." how the various researchers got in; the result is that the PGCA has all the available photocopy records for safe-keeping and with which Research Letters are crafted. The idea that the 20 or more persons involved, from all walks of life and from all over the country, during the span of about 7 years, conspired to keep information from some unnamed person(s) about unspecified guns takes a tremendous imagination helped along by being totally unacquainted with the facts,, some of which fill in gaps in the missing record books.

Oh! As to the "nice guys" part, some are and some are not; but as we used to say in my boat racing days, "Nice guys finish last." EDM


EDM
EDM #132556 01/26/09 07:08 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,609
Likes: 14
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,609
Likes: 14
"as we used to say in my boat racing days, "Nice guys finish last.""
I suspect EDM didn't win a lot of races. His work in educating us in the field of Parker has always been about lending a hand to anyone who wishes to learn about the Parker Gun, so he's one of the "nice guys" and my hat's off to him. Thanks Ed.

Dean

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 35
Sidelock
****
Offline
Sidelock
****

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 35
Originally Posted By: Daryl Hallquist
While in Vegas I heard some scuttle about members of the Parker Gun Collectors Assoc. retrieving Parker records, or similar, from someone's residence. Does anyone have any info on this ?


Word that circulated for several years was two of the PGCA researchers went back to Remington a short time later and started making copies for themselves, one of which boasted frequently on the PGCA forum about his own personal records while regularly asking new forum visitors for their Parker serial numbers.


Old Shooter

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,449
Likes: 278
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,449
Likes: 278
Old Shooter, the persons you describe were invited to participate in a recognized research project, and did so. There is no boasting about "personal records". My research files, for your information, were accumulated at great personal expense of time and money and are available to anyone who would like to utilize them. You seem to be a bit paranoid and bitter and have not noticed that I have provided thousands of paragraphs of information to Parker owners and students. I am well aware of the erroneous "circulation of words" that you allude to. I have discussed this situation with various members of the PGCA BOD and have received apologies from some and a turned head from others. By the way, I would appreciate an introduction, Mr. Old Shooter. I am Bill Murphy, a life member of PGCA.

Page 4 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.162s Queries: 35 (0.128s) Memory: 0.8650 MB (Peak: 1.9018 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2025-10-11 22:43:20 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS