doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com What does a prospective buyer want/need to know?

I'm probably the only poster to this board who would not know what to tell someone about a firearm that he had for sale

I am not a shooter nor am I a knowlegable collector....so I would have to rely on the kindness of stangers if and when I would decide to sell one or more of a gifted/inherited collection....and somehow I can't see even the kindest of buyers offering the fact that I might be selling it too cheaply and offering to pay me double what I was asking!!

Some of you may remember an earlier posting where I attached a pic or two of several of the double rifles in the collection and solicited your advice on how & where to sell them (auction vs consignment vs direct sale)....you also advised that I have a knowledgable individual look them over to offer a better idea as to possible values.

I DID travel with a good portion of the collection ~ mostly rifles ~ and was excited to meet another board member who looked them over and offered his opinion.....we spent an afternoon together in his home as he looked things over and offered an opinion or two, he made some notes that I wish I had thought to ask for copies of....mostly measurements I think....and I am greatful for his hospitality!

Being a firearm novice and having no real interest in shooting I did not pay enough attention even then to all that was said....so here I am again and hence my question ~ what does a prospective buyer need to know?

I know they'd want to know #1 - manufacturer; caliber or gauge; model number (if any); #2 - length of barrels; #3 - LOP (I assume this to be from the front trigger to the end of the stock or pad); #4 - overall condition with notation of any obvious flaws; #5 - sidelock/boxlock (I have NO idea here unless I look at a reference guide); #6 - weight (can I put it on a bathroom scale?); #7 - asking price.....#8 - barrell wall thickness if it's a shotgun (right?...and just HOW does a novice like me determine that! !

OK....please help me out from here!

I know that good pics would be a must and the "how to" for that will have to come in another post.....

What I am hoping to achieve here is a good BASIC list of what a good "For Sale" post needs to include

this is my personal list that I give to folks that ask this question of me.

How I examine a prospective gun to buy.



First decide if you are buying the gun to use or for collecting. If its for a collection; the fit and balance is not important.



A gun’s balance and fit is a personal thing. What I think is a well balanced gun might seem like a canoe paddle to you. Pick it up, mount it and swing it around. A small trick that I do is to pick out an object to aim at, have the gun unmounted, look at your target, close your eyes and mount the gun. Open your eyes, is it pointing where you want it? If it doesn’t fit you or seems like a club, I hope you’re buying it for collecting.



Take a quick all encompassing view. Decide if you like the gun overall. If not, pass on it. They usually don’t grow on you.



Make sure that you have good lighting to examine the gun. Its easy to miss things in the dark. Have the gun taken apart. Ask the owner to do it or ask if they mind if you do it. Separate into each piece.



Start with the barrels. This is the most expensive part to replace and/or fix. Bad barrels can kill an otherwise great gun.



Hold the barrels over a rug or soft piece of furniture. Just in case you drop them. Place the barrels muzzle down and put your finger or a pencil under the hook and hold them without anything else touching the barrels anywhere. Use your knuckle and give each barrel a sharp rap. Be careful not to knock the barrels off the pencil. Sound barrels with tight ribs will give you a clear bell sounding ring. If they sound dull or tinny the ribs are probably loose. Cost about $165-$350 to resolder and reblue/rebrown.


Run your fingers all over the barrels and look closely for dents and bulges. Hold them up to the light and eyeball down the side. Dents cost $25- $40 each to remove plus if large must restrike the barrels and reblue/rebrown. Large bulges just about kill a deal unless the barrels are going to be sleeved.


Check the outside for pitting. If present must restrike the barrels and reblue/rebrown. Cost $250-$400


Hold up to the light and look inside for pitting. Check the chamber area and the rest of the barrels. Chamber pitting unless really bad will have no effect on shooting just looks. Can’t really do anything about it unless you have the chambers resleeved. Cost $300 each chamber. Pitting in the barrel. Light pitting is no problem to remove if the barrel wall thickness is there. (I will expand on this later). Can be shot with light to medium pitting if the barrel wall thickness is good. Heavy pitting must be checked out with special tools to make sure the wall thickness is still good. Barrel honing cost $40-$50 each for .004 - .005. This will clean up all but heavy pitting.


Barrel wall thickness. I have seen barrels shot with .018” thickness. Barrels with this thin of a wall have passed the British proof house. Barrels with walls as thin as this must be thin at the muzzle end only. They will dent very easily. No margin for error. The British proof house prefers .025” at 9” from the breech end. I will not buy a gun with the wall thickness below .020 anywhere on the barrels. Remember, it’s your fingers and eyes. You can not grow new ones. Hopefully no one else is near you when it goes. If you must have a thin barreled gun either sleeve it, buy inserts or hang it on the wall. Measuring wall thickness takes a special tool. Cost about $500- $700. Find a smith with this tool and make sure they know how to use it. Ask the seller if you can have a gunsmith inspect the barrels with return privileges if they fail. Sleeving barrels cost $1500 - $2000, inserts cost $300-$500. Hanging on the wall $4. Keeping all 10 of your digits and both eyes is priceless.


Use a chamber gauge and measure the chamber. Cost $35


Buy the proof mark book. Cost $15. Decipher all of the proof marks on the barrel flats and water table. They can and will tell you a lot. The original bore diameter will most likely be marked. After measuring the current diameter you can tell if the gun has been honed. If so, measure the wall thickness.


Use a magnifying glass and check out the engraving on the rib. Make sure that it hasn’t been worn/buffed too much.


Choke gauge will not tell you the choke. It will tell you the choke measurement at the muzzle. The bore gauge will tell you the difference between the bore diameter and the choke if any. This measurement will give you the choke. Example: if the gun was originally bored to .729 and had a choke of .015 and then the gun was honed by .005. The muzzle would still give you a choke of IM but it would really be Mod. Bore gauge cost $125.


Forend: Checkering, will it do as is, will it need to be touched up, will it need to be completely redone? Touchup cost $20-$40. Redone cost $60-$80.


Check for missing wood. It can be fixed. Check for forend tip. Check screws, are they tight and matching?


Check for cracks. Again they can be fixed and don’t cost too much if they aren’t really major.


Stock. For the stock do the same as for the forend. Pay special attention to the head, toe and heel for cracks or missing wood. Also, check and see if the head is oil soaked. If soaked, the oil will need to be removed and the stock refinished. Oil soaked wood is weak and can break easily. Cost $250-$400. Check the stock/action fit. Must be tight. If there is any movement it will have to be fixed.


Length of pull and stock extensions. Make sure that the length of pull fits you or is at least close. Pads can be added cheaply, restocking isn’t cheap. The Brits usually fix a short stock by adding 1 to 3 inches of wood to the butt. Once in awhile it can be made to be almost invisible. More often it looks horrible. If it can’t be fixed with a pad it will have to be restocked or lived with.


Action. Hammerguns: Check that both hammers and hammer screws match. Check that the firing pins are present and for condition, (i.e. round point and not mashed on the ends).


All types. Look at the breech face, check for pitting and enlarged firing pin holes. Sure signs of a lot of use. Costly to fix. Check for cracks where the breech face and watertable join. If present pass on the gun. Check the screw or screws that hold the locks on if hammergun or sidelock. Make sure that they do not extend beyond the off side lock plate. A sign that the stock has problems and the screw had to be tightened further than originally made to keep locks tight. Can be fixed easily but a sign that further investigation is needed.


Check all screw slots. If they are buggered they are expensive to replace. Must be handmade for English guns at $30-$60 + engraving each. Screw slots should be timed. I.e. line up either horizontally or vertically. If they aren’t, they have either been tightened too much or are not tight. They can be retimed.


The engraving should be closely examined. Use a magnifying glass. The engraving should be fairly sharp depending upon the age and condition of the gun. Expensive to redo. Check the triggerguard for dents. It can be reshaped.




I have tried to go through this in a logical order. I am sure that I have left something out. Never buy a gun sight unseen unless you have the seller’s promise of something like a 3 day no firing return policy. If they won’t do this, the gun most likely has something wrong with it.





Mike

Mike, You have offered a very good and comprehensive list of what a buyer needs to know, thank you! However; your above statement I believe is inaccurate. The Birmingham Proof House measures the bore diameter 9" from the breech by sliding a plug gauge into it, the size of the last plug gauge to reach 9" is then stamped on the barrel flats. They will inform the submitter if the MWT anywhere in the barrel that can be measured (ribs are required to be fitted, therefore; the wall under the rib cannot be measured) falls below .020---even though it may have passed proof with a MWT less than .020. This information I got from a direct e-mail with the chief inspector, Michael Lynch, of the Birmingham Proof House.

Thanks for providing your experience, Mike. I've been around guns all my life and wouldn't know where to start. Members like you make this board.

Mike,
excellent post and reply !
I have to say, like many others on here,I have been buying (and selling some),guns for 25 years and to be able to put down on a post what we do like that is to be commended.
Well done !

If I may add:
check for tightness in the action,make sure its on face;
remove the forearm and shake the gun to see if you feel or hear any loosness in the action.Also hold the gun up to the light (good light as Mike suggests) and twist the barrels slighly while holding the action to see if you see movemnt or lots of light.

One other thing I do is check the seller,sometimes the seller is more important then the gun.If he is not reputable no matter how good a deal it sound like its not-move one.

Great post Mike...only one problem even the most skilled sellers can't or won't answer all those questions.

If you do not know what you have, or are selling, you will not get a fair price for them. Buyers are not in the habit of educating sellers that the gun they are selling is worth more than what they are asking. If you are serious about selling and want top dollar, or at least a fair market value then have the guns appraised by a good dealer or have them listed on consignment.

You could spend a hundred hours learning what you have and what it means. Do you want to spend that much time? I am going to sell a few dozen gun next year when the economy picks up and most likely will sell them on the net, on one of the auction sites. Noting rare in my guns, just project guns and shooters that I have figured out that I will never get to work on in this lifetime. So many neat guns and so little time.

Mike....I am quite certain that to the seasoned shooter/hunter/collector your response is a great one....but to a novice like myself....WAY MORE than I needed or wanted to know....

Once again....I am a COMPLETE NOVICE when it comes to my firearms and ALL I WANTED TO KNOW WAS what information I might need to present to a prospective buyer....say in an AD in the buyer's forum! Most of your post (Mike) expounds on what I would expect any buyer to run through (to the best of their ability) while examining any possible purchase.

So please let me re-phrase my question:

What basic information would you like to see in ANY AD for a firearm for sale?

Champlin Arms describes their guns like I would like to see all sellers describe their guns, their pics take a back seat to no one also. Check out the following link on a typical listing for them and you'll see what a good ad looks like:

http://www.champlinarms.com/Default.aspx...0&GunID=934