doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Charles Hellis Guns- best today?

It seems that only Charles Hellis makes guns entirely by hand, no CRC, arc welders etc. Are they the last? Does anyone else make guns entirely by hand, not hand finished? Also, does anyone out there own, shoot or handled one of their current guns? Is the Hellis quality today what a Purdey was like in the 30's?

I've never heard that, but I guess it's possible. But what does "entirely by hand" mean? Are they filing up raw forgings for the action, forend iron, etc? If they are, I wonder who is providing them?

What about the bbls? Are they drilling their own tubes?

And if a company uses CNC-shaped parts and then fits them by hand to Best quality, I wonder if it really matter.

Thanks

OWD

BTW: what do you mean by "Purdey-style" locks over on the other board? Do you mean a Beesley action? And do you mean Hellis is making guns on Beesley actions?

Thanks again.

Yes the locks are Beesley action. Far more difficult to make than the H & H action. As to does it matter if the parts are CNC and then finished by hand? In the 30's Purdeys were more or less built by hand. Most of the gunsmiths that I respect feel these guns are far superior to the new Purdeys. Also trying to find someone who has and has used a new Charles Hellis??

I kind of agree with you on quality. I was in London last fall and I checked out new guns at H&H and Purdey's. They were bad.

And I've heard gunsmiths say that because so many of the parts are being CNCed, the gunmakers have lost the skill that it takes to really file up the action, metalwork, etc and make it all right.

That being said, I still wonder where Hellis is getting raw forgings. I'll have to look into it. Perhaps I'm mistaken on some of this.

Also, I hear the new Greener SxSs are spectacular guns. I haven't had one in my hands yet, but the people I know who have handled and shot them say they are the finest guns coming out of the UK.

I haven't heard a thing about Hellis, but that doesn't mean much.


OWD

OK. Some clarification:

Is this the claim you're referring to?

http://www.hellis.com/shotguns.html

From what I can tell, Hellis uses a modified version of a Baker patent for their O/Us. Boothroyd talks about this action in his book on British O/Us. The Beesley-patent action that Purdey uses is for SxSs.

Other than Baker, I don't think any else has ever made an O/U on this system. And I believe Baker made very few of them.

I think some of other makers bought guns from Baker in the white and then put their names on them, though.

As for their "hand made" claims, it's suspicious. I kind of sounds like the way the US food industry uses the word "organic."

I sent Hellis an email to try and lean more.

Thanks for the heads up on this. I'm curious to see what we'll find out.

OWD

I am talking about SxS

Gotcha. My mistake - I didn't see them.

But again, what does "totally hand built" mean? I'll have to find out.

There's no claim about their SxS being the only one totally hand made, either.

OWD


BTW: The Atkin spring openers I've handled haven't been much easier to close, if at all.

I was in London last year and went by train, outside of London to their 'Facility" (Hellis). Just a bunch of first class gunsmiths working out of their small shops. I saw the fellow making the locks- like something from 50 years ago. When they say handmade - they just mean - I believe, with very little modern technology. I went to Bosis, outside of Milan. Some would say he is the finest lockmaker in the world. They are wonderful people. He brought out a new lock - magnificent. I am an engineer and have never seen anything quite like it. It was made to his specifications by a Swiss company, machine made. I am sure no one could hand make a lock of this quality BUT at this price would you prefer a gun, perhaps not "perfect" but made on a bench by a craftsman? Just my 2 cents.
As to Purdey Vs H & H locks I feel that Purdey locks are more "alive" than H & H. Again my 2 cents.

Your comment on the lock is interesting. Why couldn't someone make a superior lock by hand?

I'm a writer, so I don't know a thing about engineering or machining.

I have an old Scott Premier hammergun with beautiful Stanton locks. They were perfectly. They were handmade.

Thanks

OWD

I love lockwork.
But, all of it is based on reproduceable relationships between parallel shafts. Geometry. Measured, reproduceable geometric relationships.

You can study locks with a jewelers loop, or an electron microscope, and the necessary relationships do not change.
You can only get them in 2 ways. By hand, or machine. But to make more than one gun of a type, these relationships must be reproduced. Machines reproduce parts better than human hands.

It's about what the lock mechanism means to you. Up to a point, I enjoy and admire looking at the file strokes of the lockmaker. I marvel at the consistency of the hand work. I love being able to fantasize about life at the bench, creating art from cold steel.
But the geometric relationships don't change, and every part is a list of actions taken. So, until the human-human relationship is established, tying one person's desires to another's hands, the machine made lock looks and works the same.

It really is about, "This lock was made for you."

A patron pays for that connection, not the numerical differences.