doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Possible Lead to Lefever Arms Co. Records.

Lefever Arms Company factory records have always evaded discovery. Thus, for individuals and collector groups trying to piece together factory details on individual guns or answer larger Lefever production questions, the amount of available information has always been very small.

A few days ago at the Lefever Arms Company Affiliation site a report was posted by a book hobbyist containing these details: 1. The hobbyist had purchased from a fellow book collector's estate a volume "apparently put together from fragments of at least three other books" (discernible by different sized pages) which contained Lefever Arms Company related data. 2. The earliest entries were made in the 1890s, the latest entries were made in the early 1900s. No knowledge was retained as to whether the information was inclusive of all years involved, or whether certain periods were missing. 3. The location of the deceased bookseller who originally purchased the materials was Northern Pennsylvania. 4. Failing an attempt to sell the material through other venues, the materials were put up for sale on an Internet auction site. 5. The materials were later traded to a gentleman (in apparent response to the Internet advertisement) in the late 1990s for an antique chest and a quantity of collector grade chisels. 6. If presently alive, this gentleman is estimated to now be about 75 years of age. 7. The best recollection by the hobbyist was that this gentleman lived in southern Illinois. 8. The gentleman was a collector of wood working tools and had substantial knowledge of the subject. 9. The gentleman was also very knowledgeable regarding antique Winterthur furniture - -this furniture considered very "high-end".

This is a brief summary of what was gained from the hobbyist. It was also his opinion that tool collector organizations such as the MidWest Tool Collectors Association might be a practical starting point for further tracking. He further felt that individuals seriously into Winterthur quality furniture were not in abundance in the Southern Illinois area.

This is now where this matter stands. A Lefever Arms Collector Association representative has reported that the Association will prepare a summary of this same information for a coming newsletter. Several Lefever Affiliation members have taken on individual assignments towards obtaining more information. The thread containing this information is at the Lefever Affiliation site, under Lefever Firearms - Lefever Records.

-So yesterday, we had nothing and today we have a chance of something. It seems Lefever now has its own missing Bo-Whoop type mystery - - albeit, this one with some tangible leads and possibilities.

Certainly, all help would be appreciated.

Check with the American Institute for Conservation -- the AIC -- and see if they have any records of a Wooden Artifacts or an Objects conservator that matches the description given above. Easy web site to find.

As well, you may wish to call Winterthur's Conservation Lab directly, to see if was an early day restorer/conservator for them. Also, the Winterthur Museum has regularly given classes for membership and interested parties, about the collections -- including the furniture.

The University of Delaware runs the Conservation Training Program in concurrence with Winterthur, so perhaps the fellow was a lecturer, or may be otherwise known.

Southern Illinois isn't overrun with conservators, so the location would be a good identifyer with which to start.

Unfortunately, my so-called spare time has been on leave -- hell, it's actually been AWOL - and for the nonce I can't pursue this. I will make a phone call or two, however to the MidWestern Furniture Mafia and see if he's was/is known.

Bob/John:

Not to throw cold water on a cold trail but I think the chance that the old boy with the "Dead Sea scrolls" was a Winterthur-trained conservator/restorer is a long one. There were a lot of vintage tool collectors in the sixties and seventies and busloads of them knew it all but had no affiliation with Winterthur or Williamsburg or the E.A.I.A and although they "knew it all" to a man, a lot of them were simply catalog numbers runners and decor-and-curiosity collectors. However, I have a couple of friends at Winterthur who might be able to hook me up if I know precisely what question/s to ask. Are you looking for Winterthur-trained pro or am with address southern Illinios?

jack

I just checked the AIC website and found just three male members who are currently-active furniture conservators in Illinois, all in northern Il.

Given that the man we seek is ~ 75 years old, he probably isn't still working.

I found a quality site for an obviously well-established "Midwest Tool Collectors" society. Another LACA member is already in the process of requesting help from them.

Here are all the facts from the original posts that started this, to provide all the source info that's currently available:

"I have been reading your forum and have seen speculation as to whether any records exist for Lefever Arms. I deal in books as a hobby and sometime in the late 90's I bought a large collection of volumes from a deceased bookdealers family in northern Pennsylvania. There was a bound volume of records from Lefever in this collection. The volume appeared to be put together from fragments of at least 3 other books as witnessed by the size and type of paper.The dates were from the 1890's to the early 1900's I believe. I had it for sale at 3 guns shows and in the Gun List for 450 dollars and had no takers and very little interest. I mentioned it to my son and he traded it to someone in Illinois for some tools. I recieved some interest after it was gone and was told that it was probably very valuable but the gentleman who got it assured me that he would make the info available to collectors. Has it ever surfaced? I don't recall off hand who the gentleman was but it was in southern Illinois."

"Well, as I have said this was just a bound single volume with what appeared to be 3 or more fragments of other volumes. The paper type and size was different in each one.I remember that the dates were from the 1890's up to the early 1900's but I never really read them to see if they were a complete block of dates I just wanted to find the earliest and latest date so I could sell them.I can only remember that the gentleman that got them was a collector of woodworking tools and very knowledgable about them and that he was from southern Illinois. ... He did assure me that he intended to share the information with others. ... The gentleman would probably be about 75 or so I would guess."

"I have been thinking ... the only thing I can really be sure of is that the man was really into woodworking and very knowledgable about wood and restoration of antiques ... He was conversant about the high end Winterthur grade stuff. There can't be to many like that in the midwest. I would guess that maybe a call to a high end antiques dealer or the midwest tool collectors might be the way to go. I still have the tool chest and chisels that he traded with. ... I must stress that what I had was a rebound assemblage of fragments and not the total records."

Gentlemen, This is going to get"Tremendously" Interesting....American Gunmaking History waiting......The Krafters' who have had their way with the'Last of the Real Gunmakers', will be Quakeing(sp)or pooping in their panties)Find a fireproof safe if & when these Records do see daylight!!!!CC

Jack and Fred

Our original poster has supplied a modest amount of additional perspective in a couple of follow-on posts to his original, so, Jack, consider visiting the LACA site for minor elaborations, if you haven't been there, already.

The original poster also indicated a willingness to look at names for name-rocognition sake, so we might also want to make those three available to him.

-Got to start somewhere.

A few tibits are also in the original poster's messages that ring true in terms of Lefever. First, and as Fred knows, the Pennsylvania location of the original and now deceased purchaser. Pennsylvania was and is Lefever Family Country. The LACA's data base contains really good information along these lines. The early 1900s cut-off of the volume's data also rings true in terms Lefever selling manufacturing rights to Ithaca. A speculation might be that the records cover the hammerless sideplate model production by Lefever up to the time of the sale to Ithaca.

I think the original poster had as good a grasp as anyone on how we might start out, but its whatever works that counts, so new ideas are definitely appreciated.

And, JohnM, thanks for the well-reasoned lead. We'll work to do the best we can.

Made email query to friend re: Winterthur associates and participants in training classes. Might have to try UD but thought maybe easier if friend's fingers do the walking and friend does the talking.

jack

I talked with Marge McNinch, Reference Archivist at DuPont / Hagley Library; then Mike Pott (sp?), Furniture Conservator at
DuPont / Winterthur. Neither recalled anyone like the subject. Mike made comments very similar to Jack's above "Not to throw cold water ..."

Mike suggested I call Craig Deller (in Geneva Il), the biggest furniture conservator in Illinois, which I will do (got no answer at 12:30 their time). He expects that Deller will know someone in southern Il who knows the subject, if Deller doesn't know him.

Fred:

Podmaniczsky. Says he gave you two of three Illini names already. You are fast!!

jack

Hmmm... I am on the train to Geneva as I write this. Does Mr Deller have a shop in Geneva? If so, some of the shops are open 'till 8pm on Thursdays and perhaps I could pop in?

Mark