doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 4 Double Rifles - let's talk values! (Pics here)

That's an exceptional quartet of double rifles. All of them will go well into five figures. One possible approach would be to contact one of the larger gun auction houses like James Julia Auctions as one example and have them professionally appraised. Many of the large auction companies will provide this service free of charge.

Flat pics coming shortly as I will be out for an hour or so!

Maybe. Certainly the flats will tell the tale. However, Jeffery's 3" version, which was designed for Cordite and to compete with the 3 1/4" Nitro version, was already being tested in 1897, so the 3 1/4" version was already in existence. It's possible for this piece to be original nitro.



Not true. Nitro proof was introduced with the 1887 rules, and many original, full nitro proof rifles were built before 1904. A dedicated nitro proof mark (NP) was introduced in 1904 as an addendum to the nitro marks already in use.

A .450/.400 3 1/4" NE proved before 1904 would be marked:

"Cordite 60grs./400grs. bullet max'm." No "NP" mark.

The naming of a specific semi-smokeless propellant (Cordite) indicates nitro proof under the 1887 rules. If the full standard charge is indicated (60grs./400grs. bullet max'm), then it's full nitro proof, not nitro for black. Early Nitro rifles in .303 were proved with Rifleite, and are so marked.

In 1904, the above mark became:

"Cordite 60/400MAX", and was accompanied by the "NP" mark. If the Woodward has an "NP" on the flats, then it was reproved after 1904.

It would be a good idea to post photos of the flats of all of these.

The UL Purdey could well be a snap action.

400 Nitro Express is correct. In many countries the powder used was often part of the proof marks. This was to help insure proper use. This practice kept up in some parts of Europe until about 1950.

Cordite


Pete

I would like the H&H .303 - will you trade me for a case of salted cashew halves?

Here you go....pics of the barrel flats ~ hope these pics will work....if not clear enough, let me know and I will try again!

Woodward ~ http://members.cox.net/taylor.knight/Copy%20of%20woodward.JPG

Purdey ~ http://members.cox.net/taylor.knight/Copy%20of%20purdey.JPG

Fraser ~ http://members.cox.net/taylor.knight/Copy%20of%20fraser.JPG

H&H ~ http://members.cox.net/taylor.knight/Copy%20of%20h&h.JPG

Not that it's a problem, but why don't my pics come up like the ones above??...too large??

Well,

The Woodward "Automatic" is a .450/.400 BPE. No indication of nitro proof present.

The date on the Purdey is wrong. (It might not have been sold until 1920, and thus may appear in the day book at that time, but it wasn't built then). Can't read all the of powder charge line, but it looks like "80grs. Cordite"? With 480 grain bullet, that makes it a .450 No. 2 Nitro Express, NOT a .500/.450. This rifle was full nitro proved BEFORE 1904. The "GRS" and "BULLET MAX'M" marks were discontinued under the 1904 rules of proof.

Both .303s show proof for 38 grains Rifleite, as expected. That was the rule for .303s at the time.

thanks Nitro!

The Purday date is from Mr. Sinnett at Purdey and you may be right that it was sold later, I surely wouldn't know!

Purdey's letter states that Gun #20081 is "a .450 double barrelled hammerless No. 2 express .450 rifle with 25" Whitworth steel barrels, clip sides to action and swivels for a sling. The pistol hand stock was 14 3/4" to the middle and had a cheek piece. It also had a leather covered silvers heelplate. This underlever rifle was originally built with a non automatic safe and weighed 11 lbs 3 ozs. The cartridge used was a .500/.450, 3 1/2" case 75 grain 480 grains bullett. The gun was built on 24th February 1920."

The Woodward letter does NOT state that it was nitro proofed....that info was part of the family records with the rifle.....it "was shot with solid bottle case 3 1/4" Eley Cannelured copper point bullet - 230 grains TS No. 6 powder 105 grains."....whatever all of that means!??

VA:

I see how you got a little confused. It isn't hard with British rifles. In Purdey's description, there are two references to the rifle being a .450 No. 2. "No. 2 Express .450 rifle" and "3 1/2" case". The only .450 Nitro that uses a 3 1/2" case is the .450 No. 2 Nitro Express. The .500/.450 uses a 3 1/4" case. The proof marks on the flats are standard for a .450 No. 2, not a .500/.450. The rifle was proved for the full 80 Cordite load (marked on the flats, and unique to the No. 2), but regulated with a reduced "Tropical" (75 Cordite) load, which was common practice.

The proof marks on the flats are definitive. The barreled action of this rifle was built up and proved in London before the 1904 rules went into effect. Since the .450 No. 2 was introduced about 1903, this rifle was proved in 1903 or 1904. It may very well have laid about "in the white" quite a while before being finished. When the problems with the .450 bores hit in India in 1906, the .450s got hard to move, so this wasn't unusual for .450s. White Hunter Philip Percival ordered a new pair of .450 No. 2s in 1927. His rifles were actually built up and proved in 1907.

The information from Woodward refers to a Black Powder Express. "Solid bottle case 3 1/4" refers to a modern drawn case, as opposed to coiled brass. "Cannelured copper point bullet - 230 grains" refers to the standard .400 BPE bullet, a metal base copper tubed 230 grain lead bullet. "No. 6 powder 105 grains" refers to Curtis & Harvey's No. 6 black. This load is a touch light, as the normal charge was 110 grains.

Hope this helps.

Thanks PJ, but I'm lying low these days!
There's much mystery to come - the days of future shock is knockin' at our door!