I inherited a very interesting gun. It is a German Drilling. It is a double barrel 16 gauge shotgun over a rifle (30 cal.?). It has a thumb operated “flip-up” sight for targeting. It has a lot of detailed engraving. Its serial number is #2899.
The visible markings are: Hilmer Fox E1, I thought, which now is actually Hilmar Folker, I think. Possneck Nitro 87mm KO U H1G 72 There are more markings in the pictures with several German Proof marks, again, I think.
I am no photographer, but I am trying to post some photos of the gun and its markings. Maybe by email??? Can you help me with any information about this gun or know someone that I should contact?
Thank you. Carter Hubbard

Forward the images to me & I'll gladly try to post them for you.

Serbus,
Raimey
rse

Carhub48,
Picking through the numbers and letters you cite, I suspect when Raimey is able to post the photos, we will find the drilling is chambered for 9.3x72R proofed for a copper jacketed bullet(K m G). A common marking for the bore( not groove or bullet) diameter for 9.3x72R rifles is 8,7mm ( Germans used a , where we would use a .). With markings like this, the drilling would have been proofed after 1911. Once Raimey has clear photos, either he or I or other members will be able to offer additional or better information.
Mike

That would be Hilmar Föckel in Pößneck in Thüringen, Waffenhandlung.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, where do I get your email address to forward you the pictures?

9,3X72R




jpgbox is down so I will try the above hosting site(imgbox).....


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

It is a Blitz lock action.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Carhub48,
The photos confirm the rifle barrel is chambered for 9.3x72R, but rather than copper jacked bullet (KmG), it was proofed for a 13 gram lead (Bl.G) bullet. It was nitro proofed in Suhl ( shown by "nitro" being written in block letters) after 1911, as stated before, and before 1923, when Suhl started dating the proof. The 16 in a circle means it was proofed with the standard 16 ga. chamber, which was 2 1/2- 2 9/16" instead of todays American standard of 2 3/4". The 16, no circle, is the diameter of the shotgun barrels, ahead of the chamber, expressed in gauge measurement. The crown W means the shotgun barrel that has this mark is "choked", but the degree of constriction is not shown. The crown U, with eagle, is the mark for" View" proof, which was basically a detailed inspection, including verification of dimensions, after firing the final proof load. There was no photo, but the shot barrels were likely marked with a crown S, which shows the barrels were proofed to fire shot. I hope you find this helpful.
Mike

Der Ami, Thank you for your information. And Thank you Raimey for your information and posting my pictures. Does the 8,7mm 72 represent 9.3x72R rifle barrel chambering?
Mike, I just reread your other post and saw the 9.3x72R is directly related to the 8,7mm 72. Thanks again. Carter

Below are some of the markings that I found on the gun. You all have answered some of them, marked with "Answered!". The unanswered questions marked with ***.

I see markings:
***WK engraved in script lettering might stand for Wilhelmer Kaelber, a barrel maker in Suhl?
***Krupp. Steel for the barrels?
Bl. G. Might be for Blei Geschoss (plain lead bullet)? Answered!
Crown over N. Nitro powder proof? Answered!
Crown over U. Inspection proof mark? Answered!
Crown over W. Choke-bore barrel mark? Answered!
16 inside a circle. 16 gauge shot gun? Answered!
8,7 mm. 8.7 mm shell size? Answered!
72. Casing size? Answered!
13 gr. bullet size or powder load? Answered!
Hilmar Folker. Dealer or seller? Answered!
Possneck. Location in Germany? Answered!
***KD. ?
***F. ?
***G. ?
***B. ?
***Several German Eagles. ?
***Several Diamond shapes with something across the face. ?
***2899. Serial #? What manufacturer's serial #?
Thanks again for all of the help.
Carter

Carhub48
Actually, the relationship is a happenstance. The 8,7 is the bore (not groove or bullet) diameter, as measured by the proof house, using plug gauges (in o.1mm steps). The 72 is the length of the case, without regard to shape or diameter, and was also applied by the proof house. The 9.3x72R is the nominal cartridge for which the rifle was chambered. From the implementation of the 1891 proof law in Mar.1893, bore diameter was marked by the proof house in gauge measurement (similar to shotguns) and the case length was not marked. Your gun would have likely been marked 118,35. Because this was confusing, the old system was improved and after about 1911 until the proof law of 1939, the system on your gun was used. In accordance with the '39 law, it was required that the gun maker clearly mark new guns with the commonly used name of the cartridges they were chambered for. This seems to have cleared up lingering confusion.
Mike
P.S. Carhub48,
Most of the random letters and shaped marks are individual's touchmarks. They identify the work done by each, for payment as well as establishment of responsibility. It is pretty much a lost cause, at this late date, to identify these workers, with any certainty, since there was no centralized record of these marks kept. Established manufactures of some components, such as barrels sometimes used recognizable marks, however.
Mike

KD possibilities:


Karl Diem(patentee für Sicherung der Abzugstangen)
Kulius Dill
Karl Dörsch(lower probability)

And of course there may have been others.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Imperial Eagles are almost always associated with 1st or 2nd proof efforts.


>>Several Diamond shapes with something across the face<<
K in a Rhombus is a noted tube maker from either the Kelber or Klett family of talented mechanics.

serbus,

Raimey
rse

For any of those looking for a free, quick & easy posting site for now, imgbox.com looks to be it.

Click >>Upload Image<< and select an image from where you have stored it.

Then click >>Family Safe Content<<, >>800X800 pixel<<, >>Don't Create a Gallery<<
and then >>Start Upload<<.

Copy the >>BB Code<< in the right upper hand area after loading & paste the string of characters into a window here, and voilà images.....


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, I trust that the starting images here were just not the greatest and the upload to imgbox didn't further degrade them? But, thanks for the instructions.

Indeed the fotos were coarse, plus the 800X800 pixel selection, and when one enlarges chaos or noise you at least get Chaos^2 or Noise^2.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

For some reason the hosting site doesn't appear to fancy the XX.jfif file format?

Raimey
rse