Looking for info as to age, manufacturer etc of this drilling.

DR. G.M. is inscribed here, only other inscription on gun is "I.a. KRUPP STAHL" which is located just forward of the two gold lines on barrels

Barrel configuration is 16 gauge over 9.3X72R

Looks like a Treff variant that experienced proof in Zella-Mehlis in August 1907 & wears tube steel from the Schilling forge. Looks like a V on the doll's head extension from the tubeset?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Wow! Thank you. What do you see that gives you all that information? Place of proof? Date of proof? Schilling forge? I googled "Treff guns" and was able to see similarities in some of the photos found there. I'm not sure what you're referring to with the "V" on the doll's head extension. In the third picture above there is a screw head at the end of the rib, that in the photo looks like a "V". Is that what you're referring to? What about the "DR. G.M." in the fourth photo? The attached photo shows a much closer look at the doll's head.

D.R.G.M. - Deutsches Reichsgebrauchsmuster or petty patent/novel idea. Since there is an associated number might be difficult to pen down but I'll look for the Roux underlever blitz type action. But the signal indicators may not be far enough back for the Meffert Treff, then it would be a Blitz/triggerplate action of sorts.

S in a chevron is the mark of sourcing from the Schilling forge. Z-M proof date is 1 up from the bottom where the ledger number is for that month - 8.07 above 647?

Yes, the V is actually a screwhead.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Treff action, toplever.

I'm curious to what the underlever mates or knuckles? And if that is the reason for stamping the novel idea on the floorplate?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

A couple of similar threads:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post422242

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post365352

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post372950


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I did a little research and found that the "DRGM", stands for Deutsches Reich Gebrauchsmuster and indicates a German Reich Registered Design

The D.G.R.M could be for any item on the drilling from improvements in the locks, selector, pop up rear sight, or anything. With out the number, it is difficult to know. Krupp Stahl is often misunderstood as the "maker" by Americans, it just means the barrels were made from Krupp steel. Such guns without a makers name, are often misnamed "Guild Guns"; they actually are guns made for "the trade". That means they were made for someone else to retail, the retailer could add what ever name they wanted. Larger companies generally added a name, but smaller ones often did not.
Mike

Raimey,
First of all thanks for the information and taking the time to research those related threads. This gun I think is most similar to the gun in the first thread that you posted (#422242). Rifle shell holder is on top of the stock though, rather than the bottom, which seems a little more practical to me. The letters "SCH" appear on the barrel selector, which also activates a rear sight. What does the "SCH" stand for?

SCH = schrot = shot or shotgun. Under the selector the other direction is there a "K"?

Lovely addition there Sharps. I'd hazard a guess the button toe cartridge trap had a registered design?

I realize it experienced proof in Z-M, but some of the Suhl makers advertised it as follows:

August Schuler peddled it as a Modell 12, Selbstspanner Drilling mit Verschlußhelbel über dem Bügel(Roux), verlängerter Laufschene.... or a Modell 13 w/ better hunting scene engraving & mit automatischem Visier or auto flip up sight.

E. Schmidt & Habermann labeled it as a Modell 500 Roux Drilling, System mit Verschlußjebel auf dem Abzugsbügel liegend, doppelter Keileintritt, verlängerte mattierte Laufschiene....

F.W. Keßler offered it as a Selbstspannerdrilling System Modern, Spannung durch den Verschlußhebel, Umschaltung durch Scheiber auf der Scheibe.....

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Yes, there is a "K" on the selector...what is german word for rifle? Hard to see in my picture, but yes the DRGM appears in the shell holder THREE times!

Is there a number associated w/ the gebrauchsmuster / D.R.G.M. anywhere on the cartridge trap? That just may point to the maker. K denotes a selection for Kugel, ball / bullet.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, Sharps and Mike, many thanks to each of you for your input thus far. Raimey, can I assume then that the drilling was made by one of the aforementioned makers, or would there be many makers using that same combination of pop-up sight and shell holder? Also, you mentioned an "associated number". Is the DRGM usually accompanied by a number?

Sorry Raimey, I just noticed your comment from 16 minutes ago. No, as I said prior to seeing your question, DRGM appears at least four places on the gun with no associated number.

Better pictures of the cartridge trap and floor plate.

A while back...maybe a few months ago, in my first post to this site, I posted pictures of another drilling (HCG Stein was inscribed on that one). The underside of the barrel was stamped G.M., could that be for Gebrauchsmuster, as in "DRGM"?

Okay, sorry, as related to the current post, I just realized that i didn't post these pictures! This info is stamped in the lower sides of both barrels.

This is on the bottom of the rifle barrel

Raimey, In your above post, you mention the Z-M proof date. I see the 8.07, where is the "Z-M", or a symbol that gives you the Zella-Mehlis location? Also, what does the "647" refer to?

Sorry, I don't know how to reference, or quote your post within my reply as I have seen others do.

Would anyone here happen to know of a good double gun specialist in Pennsylvania (preferably S.W. PA)? i have a few in need of some repair.

gjk,
The ledger number shows that it was proofed in Zella-Mehlis, and was likely made there or near there. At the time, the Suhl proof house didn't mark the guns with a ledger number. The ledger number means it was the 647th gun to enter the proof house that month.
Mike

I think this is a similar Drilling from a Catalogue of A. Kleszcezewski (one Gunmaker and Dealer of so many in that time) in Berlin:



Cheers,
Gunwolf

Raimey, what can I say, I am a math wizard.....lol. You oughta see my algebra....

Gründungsjahr 1885 for A. Kleszczewski, Berlin SW. 68, Friedrichstraße 55.

No. 0125. Bügelspanner mit stabilem 3 fachen Rouxverschluß und verlängerter Kopfschiene, System-kastenwänden durch seitenleisten verstärkt, Ia Krupp-Rohre mit Chokebohrung, Signalstifte, Greener Sicherung, Rückstecher, Kugellauf mit feinsten Expresszügen, Kal. 9,3X72 für Blei- und Kupfermantelgeschosse; alle drei Läufe amtlich für rauchlose Pulver geprüft und beschosen.......

Paul Aegidius Kleszcewski hung out his gunmaking shingle in 1880 & was located in a couple Berlin addresses: Friedrichstraße 73 & 83. I wonder how he was connected in Berlin and how Kleszewski Erben(Friedrichstraße 55) or Angela Kleszewski/Kleszczewski-Witwe continued there till the beginning of WWII?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Axel E. on Kleszczewski of Berlin:

"In the "Deutsche Waffenzeitung 1900 Kleszewski announced his revolutionary new see-through shotgun shells. I searched the following years up to 1909, no ad or mention at all of those celluloid cased shells. Likely production never materialized. Understandable, because it was a bum idea from the start IMHO. Celluloid is merely a variant of nitrocellulose, essentially highly flammable. You may even shoot with fine strips cut from old movie films used as part of the powder.
But I found some other things about Kleszewski: Until 1907 he constantly had ads offering jobs, often the same job as actioner, stocker or general repair man reappearing after half a year or so. From 1906 on for a Berlin location too. So his workers apparently did not stay with the company for some time.
And, in 1904 the "gun dealer Kleszewski" was sued by the German Gunmakers Association for unfair business practices or fraud. He had advertized with pictures showing a big factory with spacious shops swarming with workers, when his real company consisted of six persons and a small workshop in the attic of his house. "Der Waffenhändler, Ludwigshafen", notes in 1905: Bankruptcy of the gun dealer Paul Kleszewski, Metz."

I seem to recall a thread around here w/ a Kleszczeski(Berliner Waffen- und Munitionsindustrie) cartridge advert/image?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Scratch that aloof image of a Kleszczewski shotshell as I was thinking of Tadeusz Jaruszewski of Poznzn.



Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Wow, that picture posted by Gunwolf looks just like it! Only difference is that the safety switch and cheek piece are on the opposite side...left handed gun in picture. You can even see the barrel indicator pins sticking up in the catalog picture!

If anyone is interested in the whole Kleszczewsk. Catalogue:

http://dspace.nplg.gov.ge/handle/1234/83657

Cheers,
Gunwolf