Hi first post here.

I'm looking to learn anything I can on the history and value of this German Stalking rifle.

My father brought this back from Germany after WWII. Firearms were being turned in after the war as new town governments were being set up. This rifle was turned in by a local Count and appears to be a custom made hunting rifle.

It is a break open single shot, 5,6X52R European caliber (22 Savage High Power) made by Carl Stiegele. It has claw scope mounts that I didn't want to mess up so I had a gunsmith make some custom claw mounts that fit the stock mounts and then mounted the modern scope to those blocks.

On the left side of the barrel it is stamped:

Krupp-LAUFSIHAL

and to the right of that:

Carl Stiegele, Hofgewehrfarrik
Munchen

Under the barrel it is stamped with the typical proof marks and the 3 digit number 438. I believe that indicates it was manufactured in April of 1938. the serial number is 37765.

On the bottom of the receiver it marked with Greifelt & Co, Suhl

It has some normal usage wear but is still a beautifully crafted rifle.


Here are few photos:

I think the following is translated from the following site under the History tab:

http://www.stiegele-jagd.de/

http://www.stiegele-jagd.de/history

"The company Stiegele Jagd has been founded in 1837 by Carl Stiegele in Munich. During the 19th century, Stiegele manufactured high-quality hunting weapons for the Bavarian royal house and the higher ranks of the German nobility. In Munich, Stiegele ran a shop in Maximilianstrasse as well as a production of hunting weapons and ammunition. The company became rifle manufacturer for the Bavarian royal court. As noted personalities as Prince Regent Luitpold of Bavaria and the author Ludwig Thoma counted among it's clients. The company reached worldwide importance far beyond the gates of Munich with it's Feuerstutzen(air or indoor) rifles and it's 4mm-Sport-Rifles-Stiegele-Patent.

The production of high-quality hunting weapons in Munich was maintained in third generation until 1927 by Carl Stiegele (Jnr.). His excessive lifestyle lead to the sale of the company in 1927. Stiegele Jagd became the property of RWS. Stiegele had an outstandingly good projectile production and was therefore of very high importance for the ammunition manufacturer RWS. When, after the end of World War II, the production and the sale of weapons were allowed again, Stiegele was taken over by Victor Brandl senior. In the middle of the 60s, Victor Brandl senior became famous far beyond the limits of Munich with the production of an over-and-under double rifle for deer with freefloating barrels. The further development of this rifle is still produced as model K 80 by the company Krieghoff.

The weapon business Stiegele Jagd had finally been taken over at the beginning of the 80s by Victor Brandl (Jnr.). At the end of the 80s, the company moved from Maximilianstrasse to the actual location in Pfarrstrasse 8. In the middle of the 80s already, Victor Brandl (Jnr.) started with auctions of luxury hunting weapons in addition to the sale of weapons. Today - nearly 20 years later - the Munich auctions on hunting weapons became a recognized institution in Europe and the world. Since 2003, Dr. Thomas Aschenbrenner is responsible together with Victor Brandl (Jnr.) for the success of the company. This ensures the future preservation of the good name and the tradition of Stiegele for the coming decades."

Carl Stiegele sourced many of the top rung craftsmen of Suhl such as Meffert & some of the Merkel boys just to name a few.

Is it possible to get a few images of the marks and initials on the underside of the tube of the Greifeldt Model 180? At the end of the Krupp steel stamp that mark looks to be that of one of the Kelber boys, who would have been sourced for the tube. I think they advertised it as a Novelty longarm and weighing between 2.5 & 2.8 kg. It has the type triggerguard bow of that of the Model 182, which was typically of buffalo horn.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thank you Raimey.

Yes, I'll try to take photos of the marking later today or tomorrow and post them up.

I appreciate your assistance.

Brad

Lovely little rifle, would make the centerpiece of many collections.

Here are the photos of the marks on the underside of the barrel.





These marks are just forward of the latch lug, also on the bottom of the tube.

Not what I would have guessed but alright. Thanks for the effort on the pics. Interesting that in 1938 it passed thru the Zella-Mehlis proofhouse and not Suhl. Greifeldt more than likely would have been the wholesaler who took Carl Steigele's order, procured the components and either performed the work or subcontracted the work. With the longarm passing thru Zella-Mehlis, I wonder if Greifeldt subcontracted some of the work to a craftsman "L" in Zella-Mehlis. Right off I don't recall when Carl Stiegele expired, but the lone bell had tolled for him and possibly his son long before the time this example was completed and the firm was more or less a firearms merchant, which took a client's order, then sought out a firm in Suhl or Zella-Mehlis to fill the order. The script "L" defines some craftsman, more than likely Zella-Mehlis than Suhl, who was compensated for some effort as well as assumed liability if the longarm didn't pass the test in the final state at the Zella-Mehlis proofhouse in April 1938. Crown over B was an all or nothing proof in the completed state. I would say however that the serial number would fall in the Greifeldt range. Also the Carl Stiegele firm had to have a master gunsmith on staff to peddle weapons.

I'll take a wild guess that it is a pleasure to shoot.

Value is somewhat reduced with the rail scope mount, but a set of rings would almost double the price.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks again Raimey.

Yes it is a pleasure to shoot. It's definitely a nail driver.

If I was to sell it I would remove the rail mounted modern scope. The original claw mounts have not been altered.

Yeah, but you would still need a set of Suhler claw mount rings and they are a bit labour intensive.

I forgot to mention that the reason ole Carl Stiegele could secure lucrative contracts is that he was near the facet of money, which was the case of many firearms merchants. A craftsman could not be the best of the best and be a firearms merchant also. The natural progression of things would be to know/recognize what the end product should resemble, which was a result of being an apprentice and then a journeyman. The firearms merhant would then contract with a master craftsman to perform the work. Suhl & Zella-Mehlis were just teeming with craftsmen like Liege, Weipert and other gunmaking centers.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Just beautiful!

SKB, I agree it's a thing of beauty. I can't imagine what it would cost to build something of similar build quality and craftsmanship in today's world.

Thanks for the comment.

Brad

T/C had a good try at it with the T/C '83, and they didn't even come close to this quality, nor did they capture much of a market. To be fair, there ISN'T much of a market for guns like this in the US, and probably wasn't any mass market in Europe either. A gun for the elite, and I don't mean that in the usual polically correct negative sense.

I personally found the T/C '83 "felt wierd." Loved the concept but kinda hated the gun itself. Prefer the Savage 219, however badly finished and plebian it may be. A rifle that "feels like a shotgun" is a GOOD thing....NOT vice versa, tho.

How about a 1936 Greifeldt stalking in 5.6X52R proofed in Suhl that M4 regrets passing over:

I can't makes heads or tails of the E.R. Schaaf "Urerahausen" - city???




Interesting that it wears the same mechanic/subcontractor script L(some may think Z???).

With only 2 datapoints does that mean that Greifeldt produced 300 per year? I would think their production numbers were a multiple of that.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

1936 Greifeldt stalker.




1938 Greifeldt stakler compared to show the script "L"(Z)??? I've seen the L on a few other examples.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

May I draw your attention to the fact that that mysterious letter also appears on the 1940-1945 German made barrel of my "Lovena" double rifle drilling? http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=213319#Post213319
Though admittedly this letter somehow resembles the "L" used for the British pound sterling, as a German I read a "Z" almost instinctively.

The retailer of this gun is Ernst Richard Schaaf, Friedrich-Karl-Str.40, Oberhausen, founded 1894, documented 1920, 1925, 1945+ (thanks Flintenkalle's directory), a typical country gunmaker,dealer in arms, ammo and hunting equipment. Oberhausen is a city in the Ruhr area agglomeration, between Essen and Duisburg.

Strikingly attractive rifle. I'm envious.

Out of curiosity, how does it shoot?

There was a recent Handloader Magazine article about the .22 Highpower that came right out and said it's a very difficult cartridge to make shoot accurately. Ken Waters, in his Pet Loads articles, said the same thing.

Both were working with Savage Model 99s, but I don't think the rifle design was the problem, as I own a 99 in .300 Savage that is a quite satisfactory performer from an accuracy standpoint.

Lovely Lovena: thanks for calling my attention to the mark. Think Greifeldt was sourced for the drilling in the white in the early 1940s?


Lovena


1938 Greifeldt
Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

And a big thanks to Shotgun-Charlie for the Ernst Richard Schaaf info as well as maintaining it. Hopefully he'll have a publication some day, maybe in the King's English?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Kurt has run across a Carl Stiegele and I thought I'd add a little info I've gleaned to this thread.


Carl Stiegele example


Karl Stiegele Hof-Büchsenmacher München
http://s1256.photobucket.com/albums/ii49...NWEHR%20FABRIK/



F.W. Keßler example


This examples doesn't have a FWK monogram I can find but it too is a copy with dual serial numbers on the water table. I think it might be a bit similar to M-4's H. Scherping Hannover
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=282171&page=1


A V. Häfner hammergun of Keßler with the 1/2 moon side frame reinforcement, which is a tell tale sign of a F. W. Keßler. It has V. Häfner on one tube and F.W. Keßler on the other.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post241471

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

A bit of info I've gleaned on the Karl Stiegele concern:


Sources give that there was a Stiegele active in the guntrade from 1793 forward. Karl Stiegele has its roots in Ingolstadt where Karl Stiegele senior hung out his gunmaking shingle there in 1837(some sources give 1835) and due to demand in 1852 he moved to München where the power of the Isar River was harnessed to drive the machinery where some 20 – 25 craftsmen were employed by the mid 1860s. I've read a few posts that give that there was an 1813 opening date in Dillingen an der Donau and there were 3 generations but the numbers just don't add up for that and there must have been at least 4 generations. From addresses and listings it would appear that they lived as well as had a retail outlet at Knöbelstraßse 13, probably typical 3 story building, and had a bullet factory at Maximilianstraße #4c(also #4) and later they were at Maximilianstraße #33. Bullets were for the most part the name of the game and daily production in the 1860s ranged from 60k to 70,000 per day in all shapes and calibres. Adverts and articles suggest that by the late 1850s Karl Stiegele Seiner/Senior was winding down his career as a Büchsenmacher and preparing to hand the torch to Karl Stiegele Junior. Can't pin it down for sure but circa 1864 seems to be the time when Karl Stiegele Junior attained the rank of master gunsmith. Little did he know that his grandson was going to deplete the family coffers and run the business in the ground in the process. Also the year 1863, possibly early1864, held some down times for Karl Stiegele Junior as he had some affliction or serious illness and a visit to a spa, possibly Hotel Guttenberg of Strasbourg France?, evidently aided in his recovery; therefore, for the rest of his life he would make the annual pilgrimage for some 50 years till 1913, a date I surmise he expired. In December of 1864 articles suggest that Karl Stiegele Senior at Knöbelstraßse 13/1 migrated to the status of a private citizen and was either appointed or elected as councilman or head of the governing body for the 39th City District of München by the mayor. So with your father on the City Council of München it would seem quite easy to be sourced for sporting weapons for the court of kings on the continent as well as those of foreign governments. Karl Stiegele Junior was a contemporary of Valentin Greiß as well as Johann Müller(J. Miller), owner of the firm Baader und Sohn Hofbüchsenmacher at Briennenstraße 10 by the late 1860s. Info suggest that he acquired his royal appointment/warrant in February/March of 1866 and by 1868 Karl Stiegele Junior was advertising as könglich Hof-Gewehrfabrikant but me thinks he was more of a Geschoßfabrikant or bullet designer/maker like that of Wilhelm Brenneke. This sourcing of the court elevated his wife and any daughters to hop-knob with the elite, opening opportunities I'm sure. It allowed he & his family to have psuedo court status. A little later his was dubbed with the honouary title of Kommerzienrat, which was used up till the end of WWI and possibly into the mid 1920s in Bavarian areas. It noted a very successful merchant who added to the country as a whole.


1868 Advert - It appears that Karl Stiegele Junior acquired the royal warrant/court advertising title and not his father?


I think this is a circa 1907 photo and it is from a 1907 article. By this time he should have turned over the reins of the company to his depraved son and Kommerzienrat Karl Stiegele Junior may have expired some 6 years later.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Johann Georg Heinrich Egestorff(1802-1868) was also dubbed with the Kommerzienrat title as he owned a primer making business at Linden Mountain, at a salt works?, in the Hannover, which he founded in 1861. Johann Friedrich August Buresch(1821-1885) married Johann Georg Heinrich Egestorff's daughter Georgine Wilhelmine Egestorff(1836-1804). The firm manufactured primers, cartridges and evidently made or sourced clay pigeons as they sold them to the Brits. It had an address on Hamel­ner Chaussee which is now either Hanomagstraße or Bornumerstraße.
Anyway with the Egestorff concern making primers and Karl Stiegele making bullets, I'm sure they were more than just pen pals.


Oktober 13th, 1876 Post Card
Source: Andrew Andrew Bornemann - www.postkarten-archiv.de.
http://www.postkarten-archiv.de/lindener-industrie-von-1838-1859.html
Interesting Postkarten collection


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

From the 1866, June/July, publication of München Messenger Town & Country paper.



Difficult to read, but it seems there was some controversy between Karl Stiegele, I assume Junior, and a military fella named Steinbrecher over a revolver. Seems Karl Stiegele was fined some 150 monetary units in the end?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Steinbrecher was the military servant of an officer who had purchased a revolver from Stiegele. He was sent by his master to Stiegele with the loaded revolver to have a cartridge removed from the barrel(chamber?). Stiegele, thinking the revolver was being returned as defective, grabbed it from the soldier, without waiting for an explanation, and as it was pointing in the soldiers direction, the revolver went off, wounding the soldier in the chest, and causing him permanent damage and the loss of 170 days of work. Since the incident was not intentional, Stiegele was charged with negligent bodily harm to another and fined 150 (florins?). The prosecutor immediately appealed this decision on the grounds that his request for a term of imprisonment was incorrectly denied and that, because of the defendants wealth, the fine was inconsequential.

Xausa, thanks for all the effort in wadding thru the Old German the script font and I would say in addition to Stiegele's wealth, his status was also considered.

Andreas-Andrew Bornemann of Hannover gives that the postkarte contains info about a powder & primer order, so we know where Stiegele was sourcing some cartridge components.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, I thought I remembered you stating that the script L was for Louis Kelber....it is on a 1935 Funk drilling I own, and positioned near the forearm hanger. Steve

Louis Kelber is typically a jagged encircled L and here's Axel's answer to the script L:

"This mark was used by the Gebrüder Kelber barrelmaking company, founded by Louis Kelber in 1894, owned then by Louis, Robert and Wilhelm Kelber. They used either this L stamp or a LK. In 1927 the "Gebr. Kelber" company was dissolved, but as noted above both Louis and Wilhelm Kelber started again on their own, Louis using the "LK" stamp and Wilhelm the well-known "WK". Who, one or both?, for which orders?, continued to use the "GB pound" stamp? Wilhelm at least is known as a rifling specialist, while Louis also made barrel ribs as a side business."

Either one of the Boys Kelber held with the mark of they sure had a hoard of tubes seeing some wear the mark from the late 1930s.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Many thanks for furhmann for wadding thru an 1864 advert by Karl Stiegele, Junior noting that he now had the reins of the company but his father will offer support, when and if needed. His effort was to instill confidence in his clients that they could expect to expect the same service and products. Said service would include the repair of old sporting weapons in particular the conversion of muzzle-loaders to his designed breech-loader. He notes that their warehouse was lush with components such as barrels, locks & stocks as well as offering cartridges, shells & wads for the then new Lefaucheux breech-loader to the desire of the client. Then he gets to the crux of the matter which was his bullet design and fabrikation. He had designed a bullet press for making swaged bullets, specifically his very accurate pointed bullets, which had an identification number between 1 & 100, making the re-order of bullets easy. For the hunt clubs, he would offer samples and I think we should more closely examine these clubs as like our golf courses today, deals were proposed and secured here. It states that the bullets were a value and if one had a large enough order, he would build you a custom mold.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse