I'm amazed that auction companies who list their sales on Proxibid so often fail to give any information about bore condition in their descriptions. Rock Island and Little John's are the worst offenders in my opinion since they're the largest operations. How can they expect internet bidders to participate without the most basic information? Yes, you can call for the information, but why should you have to? In a large auction there mat be 30-40 items a potential bidder would want to know about in order to pare that number down to actual bids. Unless companies are willing to do what they can to put internet bidders on an equal footing with on-site bidders. they ought not list their sales at all.

I see your point but to be honest I have been buying more guns at auction with little info on them. Why? because at times I have been buying really right. The more info, the more people bid, the higher the price. I just found a small auction with a few guns I am interested in and I am going to take a risk on them and see....

"Unless companies are willing to do what they can to put internet bidders on an equal footing with on-site bidders. they ought not list their sales at all."

Or internet bidders should simply not partake in the auction. No rule requires that I bid unless I choose to do so. One can simply ignore them.

cpa, you're point is clear, but those of us with a serious interest in unusual firearms would otherwise have extremely limited access to them. I find SKB's point more persuasive, possibly because it aligns with my own behavior even while it runs a bit contrary to my better sense. Over the long haul I've done well, but there have been some notable lapses.

Bill, I agree with SKB and definitely agree with your second post. I live in Eastern New Mexico and any show of size is a 4+ hour drive. GB and other auction sites along with the Proxibid (in my case) access to large auction houses around the country opens up a whole world of accessibility to firearms I would never see, much less have the opportunity to buy. There have been a few times I was disappointed, and even burned once. But in all, if I temper my bids with a bit of "possible reality", I find I am quite happy with what I get. If it goes for more than my max, then I just hope the other bidder gets what he wanted.

We all know that a fair bore may or may not be reasonably accurate and for the most part, I won't be putting that many rounds through the majority of these. Having several to pick from allows me more freedom of choice in which gun I might use and I wouldn't have or be able to afford the "several" if I had to pay premium for all of them.

It would be nice if all aspects were addressed in descriptions but that will increase interest and therefore price. I have managed to acquire some nice additions at reasonable prices going off of a couple or solo picture and meager description.

Thaine

Think of what might happen if they listed bore condition and the buyer disagreed with their estimate? The addition of a bore evaluation is always going to be different by each person. 1-10 scales are even worse than NRA way of listing them as good, very good, excellent, etc.
The addition of a bore description adds another problem for the auction house, and another loophole for buyer's remorse if they got caught up in the bidding, and want a way out later. I doubt they want to open that can of worms.

Vall, This seems to be the auction houses' point of view. I would reply that bore condition, to someone who knows what to look for, is no more subjective than another part of a description. And, if the catalogers don't know what to look for, they could either be trained or replaced. If a company wants internet bidders, they should do what they reasonably can to give them information comparable to what on site bidders can see for themselves.

I like to see pictures of the bore and of the crown. And I avoid, like the plague, sellers who say something to the effect, "... should clean up nicely..."

Or even worse "In great shape considering its age".

How about bright and shiny with some pitting?

... and then there's "shootable" ...

Or "normal, for a blackpowder era firearm"....

Bottomline, yes it is frustrating that the auction companies all do their descriptions different with some describing the bore and other not even mentioning it, however they are not going to change anytime in the near future. In fact all the online buyers could boycott the services and it would still take more years to change then many of us on this website have left.
I think what Vall said pretty much describes the root cause of why the auction houses do or do not describe the bore. REMEMBER WHAT MOM SAID, "BUYER BEWARE"
So, you the potential buyers need to make a decision, are you going to or are you not going to participate, you get to choose.

Certainly, I choose to pass on may of these tacky ways of avoiding stating that the bore is in poor condition. When I was bidding on rifles from Michael's collection on Amoskeag, I certainly paid attention to bore condition. I found that, at least in the one instance of the rifle I bought, I got exactly what they described.

Gunrunner Auctions is another place where bore condition is almost always mentioned. I have my first purchase from them awaiting me at the LGS so I will see how honest they are.

If we patronize auctions where bore condition is honestly described and rat out those where it is not, we can do our part to improve the game.

I won't buy a firearm from a gunshow or shop if the bore is full of dust and lint and the dealer won't run a patch through it so I can inspect it. I don't lose sleep if I walk away from a few guns now and then.

I still have bad feelings about Rock Island with regard to the "stated" condition of an early special order LeFever. It was a damn good thing that I drove the 420 miles (round trip) to look at the gun before the auction. When I first saw it sitting on the table I was giddy as a school girl because the outside looked great. The exterior was beautiful with a very high percentage of original case color and beautiful Damascus. The coverage of engraving was up there with an "A Grade", beautiful dogs and scroll. The wood had nice figure as well, typical of the higher grade LeFevers. I figured I'd be paying whatever necessary to take it home with me then I opened it up and looked down the tubes. My heart sank as the bores, said in print by RI to be "bright", looked like old rotted out exhaust pipes with deep pits running the entire length of the bores. I was pissed, actually pissed to the point of being openly vocal to the RI staff at hand. I'm generally none too pleased about people who waste my time but this really did a number on what I try to maintain as a friendly disposition. Sure I suppose I could have entertained the idea of sleeving the barrels but of course I had no idea of what another might bid not knowing the actual condition of the gun. I have not gone back to RI since, so much for trust.

Mark

I do agree that bore condition should be stated, but I doubt even well trained folks will all agree on bore condition, anymore than they rarely agree on external condition. I've been collecting, and buying/selling antique guns for almost 50 years, and I've seen a huge disparity in that time between sellers. I'd venture to say I could take 5 guys and show them each the same gun, and ask their estimate of bore and exterior, and likely get 5 different opinions.
I've always tried to underestimate guns I sell. I have been lucky to date, as every buyer has told me the gun was "better than expected". Or that I was conservative in my estimate. I like hearing that, as too many people tell me the guns they buy are big disappointments when they finally get them in their hands.
I think I know the seller BrentD mentioned when he described those who use descriptions like, "Should clean up to..." or "good for it's age", etc. There is a online dealer using these phrases often, and I sent two guns back before I finally gave up on his lies, and clever descriptions. Cost me shipping, but usually the bores and general condition were both worse than described. I tell anyone who mentions his name to run away quickly!

I agree that auctions allow many more folks to get into the guns that they otherwise would never even be able to handle in person but also think that in rifles, bore condition is too subjective. Subjective as to the sellers experience in looking at bores and also subjective as to whether the rifle will shoot satisfactorily with said bore condition. Im sure we all have crappy bores which shoot quite well, right?
What I genuinely loath, is pure laziness on the part of the seller or auction house. My Westley match rifle had a bore report which was not complimentary but after cleaning and shooting some PP loads, it actually looks quite nice and shoots very well. I think the crappy bore condition report kept it from selling at auction (Julias) and if they had bothered to give it a decent cleaning, it would have sold at auction for more than I paid for it at the post auction sale.
Even at shows, I am shocked by the number of rifles which have clearly not been cleaned in years! You damn near need to bring a kit with you to get a good idea of the bores sometimes!
I have come out on the upside more often than not in this regard, luckily, but as SKB says, if you know what you are buying and buy it right (at your comfortable bid) you will be all right. He has the benefit of being a smith whom understands what he is buying and has the ability to right the wrongs of the gun as well.
Also, you will notice that, generally, the sellers who go to the trouble of thoroughly describing a gun and it's bore are usually the guys whom have been selling from before the internet era. Gentlemen like George Caswell do a great job describing his guns on offer because he came from an era when a lot of sales were made based on a printed catalog description, often with no pictures at all.

I have had some good surprise also Huvius. Bought old guns at various gun shows that sellers were too lazy to clean, and ended up after a lot of extensive cleaning having a very nice bore.
Purchased a Ballard Pacific recently that the gun shop never lifted a finger to try and clean. It looked horrendous with some sort of brown gunk all over the metal! I got it for a song, and spent 6 hours stripping the entire gun down to it's base parts and cleaning it. It took acetone to break the gunk loose, but underneath was a very nice Ballard Pacific!

Before, with one spot cleaned to read the caliber (.40-85):



After, entirely cleaned:

Any body ever look at morphys auction ????

By chance I just looked at an item on Morphy's just a few days ago when a friend asked me to check a gun out there. The description said, "very good condition" and the gun was a later 336 Marlin with almost no finish left on it anywhere, and ugly wood. If that's their idea of very good, I wont look in on their auctions.