I ran across an ad a few weeks ago for a Ballard with a Winchester barrel. A Pacific action with DST. Was told the bore was nice and shiny ;-). Got the rifle a few days ago and it was touch and go about keeping it or sending it back. I keep telling myself I only wanted the action but it is an interesting rifle, of sorts.
We have not attracted as many single-shot folks to this sight as I had thought we would so if this is something you guys are not interested in I can skip all this.
Thought it may have some interest for new folks and most here are a bit more advanced.
Michael you proably have more than you think you do. Smile Some of us just like neat guns. smile Whitey
I love single shots!!!!! Ok please keep going with this.
If you bought a project then you have a great one. Its not ugly its halloween and it is only out trick and treating. I think you got a treat.
Michael,
There are a bunch of us that like singles but we seem to be overwhelmed, of late, with those dog-leg rifles.
What's up with the sight on that action? It looks like something made from something else, yet rather serviceable if not very elegant.
Nothing wrong with that action except the beating it took on the top of the receiver ring with those stamps. What's that all about?
Brent
The good and the bad.
Every screw in the rifle needs replaced. The set trigger screw was missing and I replaced that yesterday. The bore is dark and worn for the first third of the bore, the rest looks OK.
The rear sight is a modern receiver sight on a angle aluminum piece, that all has to go.
The rear barrel sight is now gone and filler installed. A combination front I'll leave on for a while.
The barrel was from a Winchester High-Wall with an inch cut off threaded and fitted to the Ballard. The barrel a No. 3 that is 33" long so it must have been 34". The cambering job is very professional with a tight fitting extractor. The extractor is not like a Ballard and I had to take it up to my friend John's and we filed the extractor down so we could take the action apart. I have no idea how they could have gotten it together with that extractor.
The butt stock is just a piece of wood butted to the action and pulled tight with the through bolt. The forend is from a High-wall badly fitted, all wood has to go.
The name stamped on the top of the receiver is J.C. Cox I don't know if it was the owner or the gunsmith. There was a Kansas gunsmith in the 1880's named J.G. Cox. More research before I spread all the parts to the wind.
More later.
Michael,
What are you going to do with it?
I really like my Pacific. The trigger is a bit mushy but if I really wanted to, I could fix that. The best thing about the Pacific is the wiping rod. Will you be refitting with that?
I presume all Pacifics are forged, not cast, but have you checked?
Brent
I too encourage you to pursue this project on this forum. I LOVE old single shots, just returned a Ballard 22RF conversion to the Green Frog and wish I could have kept it for myself. Ballards are IMO perhaps the ultimate Schuetzen action and I've always wanted to build a self-setting 4-lever trigger like Frank de Haas shows in one of his books.
What are your thoughts on tight-breeching? I've done it on walls and did it on Froggie's RF Ballard but am still undecided about the accuracy benefits if any.
Do you or any others here have any experience with tight-breeching a single shot? I've heard that Harry Pope liked to do it this way but am lacking details....
Regards, Joe
What a bunch of spare parts. The sight looks like an australian mount.
DST action, lots of draw filing???
Back a few years ago I started shooting Mr. Niedner's 32-40 Ballard a lot. I was starting to get a bit nervous about doing something wrong and hurting the rifle. I thought about building another like it to experiment with so I had Ron Smith make me a barrel just like on the Niedner.
The Ballard rifle company would not sell me a No.6 action so I kept my eye out for a DST Ballard. Now that I have it I'm having second thoughts about pulling the barrel. I'll shoot it and see what how it goes, weather permitting, it was 20 this morning.
I would like to find out who Mr. Cox was before I do anything. If it shoots good I may just pass it on and look for another action.
Years ago I had two Ballard buttstocks for bench-rest shooting but have not seen them in Twenty years.
Many choices, this barrel could be rebored to .33, I have several moulds for that caliber.
It's a forged action and no ramrod for me. The triggers are great. I fitted a new screw and turned it in until they unset then back it off a half turn.
I had a Peterson Ballard in .25-20 single-shot that I thought I would bend or break the lever every time I opened it it was so tight. John has a .22 Peterson Ballard and it's very tight, they shot good so Peterson must have known how to do it. I've owned a few Pope Ballards over the years and they were tight but nothing like the Petersons.
The chamber is cut with no lead, just a taper from the case to the bore. Looks like it was cut for breech-seating.
The breech-seater is one I made back when I was a kid and first started playing with schuetzen rifles.
I took a 32-40 case and drilled a 5/16" hole through the back and adjust the seater then solder it in place. I could not tell you how many times this has been soldered. When I find a good length I make a new one for that rifle.
I have a pile of .32 caliber bullet moulds so I can try many and see what if anything will shoot in this rifle.
Can you see where the rifling marks stop just short of the base on the bullet on the far left? This is about where I like to start bullets and I have adjusted the seater for this.
What a bunch of spare parts. The sight looks like an australian mount.
DST action, lots of draw filing???
I was thinking I should be back in the community collage where I took several semesters of machine shop. They had a nice surface grinder ;-). John has a stencil to replace the markings if I get carried away.
If Ken Moss at Cedar Creek Screws is still in business, that is a cheap and fast fix. Excellent product. New screws in the lever and link will tighten up the action.
If you like the barrel on the rifle, pull it and send it to Ron Smith and have it opened to 33/40. I have a low wall false muzzle 28-30 with a bad bore and Ron is going to rebore it to 30 cal with a gain twist.
CPA/Schuttleworth has many stock patterns and buttplate casting availble for a Ballard. They will turn your wood or you can buy from them.
There are a number of ballards built as rimfire target rifles in the 40's & 50's still being shot competitively against bolt guns today at the local schuetzen clubs. All of these I have seen were chambered so that there is a light crush of the rim when the action is closed.
Michael, that could just as easily be cut for bore diameter paper patched bullet. They would work in any event.
Brent
I don't post here much, but I lurk a lot. There are some fine rifles with kick stands and love to see them, but my heart always falls for nice single shots and lever actions.
Thank you
Brad Hurt
Thanks, I'll check out the screw kit although I do have a lathe, just need the time.
I thought about sending the barrel to Ron , then he would ask how is that last barrel working out
.
I"m still searching for the two utilitarian stocks I lost.
Michael, that could just as easily be cut for bore diameter paper patched bullet. They would work in any event.
Brent
Sure I could make a breech-seater for regular or Chase patch but to little advantage. I have never seen a PP bullet preform to the degree of accuracy that I strive for.
IMO A good schuetzen rifle should be able to place ten shots at both 100 and 200 yards in 1/2 MOA.
I am a solitary shooter and rarely if ever shoot in any kind of matches. I shoot against whatever my best was with that rifle. When I do talk publicly, post or publish groups I try to do ones that were witnessed. That's not always possible.
A question about the two pins in the front of the Pacific action. Can they be pulled out or do I need to grind (file) them off?
Do you really want to do that? They align the forearm.
Do you really want to do that? They align the forearm.
Only if your using a ramrod, I wont. Normally a dowel is used from the forend into the hole in the action.
I agree just thought you might want to keep that originality to the action. Obiviously you get to choose.
Looking forward to seeing the project unwind. Does this means you are going to keep it, in your first post you sounded a bit still on the fence?
Sure I could make a breech-seater for regular or Chase patch but to little advantage. I have never seen a PP bullet preform to the degree of accuracy that I strive for.
IMO A good schuetzen rifle should be able to place ten shots at both 100 and 200 yards in 1/2 MOA.
Thankfully, I have never seen a schuetzen shooter that was capable of that with anything even close to what could be called consistency, and I've seen quite a few good ones. Real good ones.
No, I didn't say you should use PPBs - though you could and you might even find the accuracy you look for, but rather that was perhaps its intended purpose.
Brent
It's a thought and the the barrel would not be hurt with a steady diet of black powder. I've shot my muzzle-breech-loader Pope with duplex loads but have never worked with it outside of those type rifles. Of course I would then have to make a PP mould which is about he only type I've made that worked well.
The good thing is there is not much I could hurt experimenting with this rifle.
A little bit more about accuracy, I have to have a goal to work for with a rifle. I have found that many good schuetzen type rifles can deliver 1/2MOA but it's a long road there. For as long as I've been at this the wind seems to be the one thing that always limits my shooting. That's why I try to shoot when the weather is good.
Michael, I missed what caliber it is. I scanned back quickly but did not see it. If it is a .45 I'm sure I can provide some very good quality ppbs for you to try. If it is .38 - I might be able to but my .38s are of the modern dimensions. Anything else, I don't shoot.
No one shot a 1/2 MOA 5-shot group for score at 200 yds this summer at our club. Not as many shooters this year, but in an entire summer, none did it. I'm pretty confident they are considerably better than average shooters too. Usually a few such groups are turned in but only a few in a whole summer's shooting.
Brent
Brent, it's a 32-40 and I have a pile of moulds for it but not a PP one. Might be fun to try some black just to see.
Mike, I have that old Ideal 3 sized breech seated bullet mold if you care to try it too.
No input except that I bet there are a lot of us single shot nuts lurking and enjoying this thread fully....BRAVO; Carry on!
I'm not a Scheutzen shooter ('way too spaz), but appreciate the guns and the matches. (It's fun to participate as a spotter or helper for somebody who can actually shoot!)
Still kicking myself for not buying a decent Ballard Pacific in .38-50 I saw in a gunshop in Redding, CA years ago. I bet that had some stories in her......
Mike, I have that old Ideal 3 sized breech seated bullet mold if you care to try it too.
Thanks Mike I'll keep that in mind.
Not a bad day so I headed to the range. A little cool and a light breeze but learned a lot about this new Ballard.
I used one case that I forgot to anneal so it was pretty beat up by the time I was done.
All bullets breech-seated with the seater I adjusted above. 13.5gr 4227 (an old standby load) Remington large-pistol primers, No cleaning between bullets or lube. I grabbed whatever .32 caliber bullets I had lubed and did it.
The rifle has a fold down Lyman front sight with a pinhead that folded down after every shot ;-). The rear POS sight would not go low enough so I aimed at one plate and hit on another.
With the plates at 60 yards I could see even white around the pinhead so I shot everything at 60 yards.
I'll scan and post the targets.
Running backwards from how they were shot,
Unknown bullet mould I'll have to try to figure out which one it was. I know I fired ten bullets???
Hudson bullet No. 289 I did not have any of the No. 273's cast they are for chambers that are cut for a bigger bullet and I think they might work as well. Something for later.
Birthday Bullet seven good ones;-).
Very first target, one fouler then five. This is an old Morrittie (sp?) mould that I have had for ages.
I'd say there's a good reason you held onto that last mould for ages!
Yes, I have a good collection of Moulds and have not even tried my Pope mould yet. That will have wait until the rifle has some other wood and a scope so I can move out to 100-yards.
Next step is to remove the sights and the wood and keep the barrel.
Everything will go slow now, lots to do before it's shot again.
A little easier to look at.
Hello Michael,
I have a sneaking suspicion that Mr Cox was the owner of your Rifle. With no disrespect, that forearm really is the work of an incompetant. No 'Gunsmith' worthy of the name would have produced such an abortion. A personal opinion I know, but can you think of anyone who would accept such work? I can't.
Harry
Unquestionably it's the work of the little-known but long-remembered world-notorious gunbutcher and raconteur, Harlow Parkenfarker!(grin) Harlow really got around......
Regards, Joe
No argument from me, the forend is a work of art compared to the buttstock.
Whoever did the barrel fitting, cambering and fitted the extractor was a good gunsmith.
On the other hand, these messes make those of us who are just above "Parkenfarker standard" feel better.....I just bought an otherwise very nice Savage 23D (I know, NOT "fine") that has apparently been "customized" by having a foot from a Victorian armchair glued and dowelled on where the little schnable used to was...nice claws! Suppose it's the result of mis-translation?
I kinda like the 23's, but have never seen one fitted with that particular type of 'furniture';-) Hahaha
Am much enjoying the discussion and progress with your Ballard, Michael. Apparently the darkened front portion of your bbl. is not an impediment to its shooting well! Glad it has worked out that way for you. How about a pic of the bullets you've tried to go with the group pics? How much larger than the bore dia. in front of the throat is the 'better' bullet, or is it? Does the bullet up-set any when hand seated or too hard for that?
I will be very interested to see how it shoots when you get the rest of it sorted and have the opportunity to do some serious testing w/o the current aggravations. Thanks for the thread!
TW,
I guess I was a bit unclear and not that it matters but the dark part of the bore is in the rear.
Two things I look for when shooting a new rifle is how it cleans and does it have an even star of lube on the muzzle. This one cleaned OK and the star was just as it should be.
The bullets I posted pictures of are the ones I used. All are bore diameter for the first few bands then progressively larger at the back. All are 20-1 lead tin, nothing else is used. Within the first few inches after firing the bullets are full groove diameter.....NO MATTER HOW HARD THE LEAD IS.
The rifles that shoot well for me have the bullets breech-seated in front of the case and only one case is used. I do not use wads with fine grain powder like 42227 or AA #9.
I like the bullets to seat easy into the rifle, ones that I have to hammer in with the heel of my hand don't seem to do well. A lot of folks use a mechanical breech-seater with a lot of leverage, it mush work for them but not for me.
I am going to leave the barrel on this action and fix it up to play with but now I'm back looking for another action.
By "cleaning OK" I mean that there was little to no lead in the bore and a couple of patches cleaned it clean.
I'm a bit on the fanatical side when it come to cleaning a Schuetzen (lead bullet) rifle.
I only use a one piece steel rod and button tip with a "o" ring at the back to protect the muzzle. My rod guide is made from nylon but an easy one is to drill out the primer pocket of a case to fit your rod. Cotton flannel patch and Hoppe's No.9. Nothing else ever, if it needs a brush I sell it ;-).
I'm making a little progress, with a little (lot) help from my friends.
I removed the escutcheon and plugged the second hole on the forearm. I moved the escutcheon back to the first hole.
I removed the two pins from the action and the Winchester forend hanger.
I fitted and glued a piece of wood into the space cut for the Winchester main spring in the back of the forend.
I took it up to john's and he mounted the forend on the side of his mill table and drilled it for a wooden dowel that goes into the hole in the Ballard receiver. I then came home and glass bedded that into place.
Today I received a Winchester 92 pistol-grip stock from Terry that had been modified for a Ballard...IT FIT!!!! Somehow it seems fitting that a Ballard with a Winchester barrel should have a Winchester stock.
The stock bolt must have fell off a piece of farm machinery then stepped on by the horses. I spent more time working with that than if I had just taken a piece of steel and made a new one.
Slow learner some time.
Not sure what is next, the barrel needs to be drilled and taped for both the forend screw and the scope blocks.
Michael as fast as you are going on this project. You will soon have nothing to do.?? Did I tell you I have what could be a nice project for someone. A AYDT Project. Whitey
Nothing to do, not likley
A lot more to do on this one, new screws, reshape the forearm and take down the butt where it's proud. Then refinish both the forearm and butt.
The firing pin sticks above the breech block so that will have to be redone.
A buttplate or recoil pad depending on the length of pull.
PLUS: This is only one of several projects that I'm working on and as a sideline I need to write, what do you call them, Articles.
Michael minus the Articles. I think you and I have the same problem.Smile And to top it off my mind keeps coming up with more. smile.And again thanks for all your help. Whitey
What an interesting hybrid you are cobbling together. I like it! Is it now a "Balwin"?
That pistol grip '92 stock threw me for a loop. What a rare cofiguration for someone to use!
I had read long ago, I think from Frank DeHaas, of using a winchester model 12 blank as a starting point but never a '92.
I wonder how many pistol grip and not checkered rifles they made.
It was installed on a .22 Ballard with Pope barrel when I got it. I replaced the wood with an original Ballard butt stock, and put the modified Winchester wood into the box of odd ball stuff which might someday be needed. I'm glad to see that the day finally came!
Several years ago I sold most of my Winchester lever guns. I had tried to collect one of each major type, with as many special order features as possible. I am not a "mint condition" oriented collector, rather enjoy finding what someone specified as features making it the ultimate for his or her use. The '92 in that set had a matted barrel, set trigger, pistol grip and cheek piece. I'm sure not many were made like that one!
Terry,
I would bet that in the entire run of '92's there was a total of one in the configuration you described.
Still cobbling along, I got more of "perch belly" in the forend than I wanted. I had to stop before I could get it flush with the frame as the notch I filled was higher then the top.
Found a Browning buttplate I could fit, the stock is bigger at the bottom than the top?
Lots more to do, have other things I need to work on so will let the wood soak up some oil.
I used a new product for a release agent. I glassed in the head of the stock and sprayed the metal with Rust Guardit. It forms a hard wax-like film and worked great.
My friend John has been using it and I tried his can now I have to find my own.
http://www.pistoleer.com/kleenbore/chemicals/
Now that you have the stocks just about repaired, you might not want to consider this but there is a buttstock in good shape with the plate on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120642465118&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT#ht_500wt_949
Brent,
Thanks for the heads-up but with all the time I have invested into the one I have I think I'll stick with it. When I get all the new screws made I will have to inlet the lever into the pistol grip area that I filled.
If I did buy it I'd have to remove that curved buttplate ;-).
I too encourage you to pursue this project on this forum. I LOVE old single shots, just returned a Ballard 22RF conversion to the Green Frog and wish I could have kept it for myself. Ballards are IMO perhaps the ultimate Schuetzen action and I've always wanted to build a self-setting 4-lever trigger like Frank de Haas shows in one of his books.
What are your thoughts on tight-breeching? I've done it on walls and did it on Froggie's RF Ballard but am still undecided about the accuracy benefits if any.
Do you or any others here have any experience with tight-breeching a single shot? I've heard that Harry Pope liked to do it this way but am lacking details....
Regards, Joe
I'm getting in on this discussion late, but since my .22, in somewhat infamous "FrankenBallard" was included, I'll join in now.
The problem with pieced-together Ballards that is not seen so much with Winchesters is parts interchange. Where you can randomly put together a 'wall from whatever parts you have at hand (original) the Ballard is a much more individually fitted rifle with parts specifications very loosely maintained and requiring final fitting. Joe had an unenviable job trying to make a barrel custom fit to one Ballard fit another receiver with a breech block from yet another Ballard!
He made it all work and then threw in fitting up not one but two levers so I could shoot it from the bench as well as offhand. I added a butt stock provided by Ken Hurst and am in the process of making a modern, bench-type fore end that can go either way. I am leaning toward a semi-classic Freeland's butt plate (that can be changed from flat to long tanged Swiss inserts to complete the package. I have, but don't know how to attach, a photo.
Froggie
PS Be careful to make it
too tight breeching or it will be a pain to open and close! Mine shoots very well with that technique done, though. GF
email your photo to ggroshelatmsndotcom and Ill post them for you.
email your photo to ggroshelatmsndotcom and Ill post them for you.
Thanks, Gary. Look for an incoming from gfrog53!
Still moving forward, slow but forward. Got the screw stock in and made some new screws. Locks up tight and inletting the lever into the pistol grip filler.
Still need to trim down the back of the firing pin.
Kind of fun working on a rifle that's not an expensive heirloom.
I made a new .32-40 head for my adjustable bullet seater this morning. This works well to find the seating depth the rifle likes.
Once the correct depth is found I'll make a new seater. The adjustable one has too many things that could come loose.
It's looking good Michael, keep up the good work.
Harry
Kind of fun working on a rifle that's not an expensive heirloom.
That's about the only kind I ever get to see, much less work on!
There is a great deal of satisfaction to taking a bunch of lonely, mismatched parts and building something worthwhile out of them... but then of course I grew up playing with Erector Sets and TinkerToys! The hardest part these days is finding affordable materials to work with. Apparently Harlow and his ilk have gathered them all up for their own nefarious purposes.
Congratulations on another neat project Michael and I'll look forward to seeing even more progress on it in the future.
Regards,
Froggie
[quote=Green FrogThere is a great deal of satisfaction to taking a bunch of lonely, mismatched parts and building something worthwhile out of them... [/quote]
Perhaps my chief source of enjoyment/fulfillment these days.
Regards, Joe
My wife calls this most enjoyable process making a "$500 gun out of $1000 worth of parts, materials, phone calls, and gasoline." (Notice she considers my labor to be of insignificant value. Married 44 years.....)
Of course you guys would have to adjust those numbers somewhat (i.e. a lot). And the final product would be worth a heck of a lot more, no matter how you reckon worth! Serious "value added".
I love seeing these projects come together.
Sorry this took so long, deer opener.
Green Frogs FrankenBallard
Gary, thanks for posting that for me... maybe someday I can figure out how to do it myself on this site.
Mike, it's probably just as well I've never been married as I am sure any wife I would ever find would have that and worse to say about my projects (dare I say, "flights of fancy?") The biggest problem with most of my projects is the duration of the actual project.
Finally to my long suffering friend, Joe; public thanks for your efforts on behalf of one of my flights of fancy. This was a bedraggled and mismatched a set of parts as I have gathered, and he put them into usable order... no small feat!
Regards,
Charlie the Frog
Interesting, tell me about the lever, looks more Remington than Ballard or Winchester.
Interesting, tell me about the lever, looks more Remington than Ballard or Winchester.
Michael, when I was gifted the breech block assembly by Charlie Dell, the basis of that lever was in the same cigar box. Joe added the last part of the tail (I can't recall exactly how much was already there, but he added some, I think.) The low resolution of the picture masks just how rough it actually is, and I will have a lot of filing and sanding to do before it is ready to finish. The same is true of the stock... it just is rough turned.
Joe can tell you better than I can, but there is a steel casting available from Track of the Wolf that can be welded to a stubbed off lever. I'm always willing to pick up a broken lever or one someone has "improved" too much to be salvaged otherwise.
Froggie
Thanks, I'll have to look at some pictures of Carlie's Peregrine(sp?) actions. It just looks familiar somehow.
I miss Charlie getting on me about my bullet lube and every time he did I would send him another nice group shot with it ;-).
One of the good guys for sure.
Now I remember where I saw that lever before!
A nice lever can be a wonderful thing to behold. When I first saw this lever it looked just like a piece of 1" steel plate.
Here's a rough casting like the one I welded to Charlie's, and another similar daintier finished one cast by anothet source.
The dainty one is for a wall and has (temporarily) graced several of my builds over the years.
Regards, Joe
The "dainty" one is like the ones from a fellow named Shelton, IIRC, who advertised them back about 1993 or so in the old ASSRA News (pre-Journal.) I've got one on my pet offhand rifle, a takedown high-wall in .32-40. I have another squirreled away for use in a similar offhand rimfire project which my never come to fruition now that the FrankenBallard lives.
Michael, you are right about the Walker lever... Shelton advertised them as being modeled after the Remington Walker Hepburns, but AFAIK only cast them with upper parts to fit the Winchester coil spring high-walls. The fancy offhand lever that was available for the late, lamented Peregrine bore a strong resemblance to both of them, and even if it wasn't inspired by the earlier levers, a good idea is a good idea, don't you agree?
Froggie
"a good idea is a good idea, don't you agree?"
Could not agree more, I think the Walker style lever is the most elegant of all the levers.
The Shelton lever was as close as I could get at the time to the original Winchester Laudensack lever, so that was what I put into the project. It turns out that my hand fits that lever like it was made for me, so even when I got the chance to get a regular copy of the Laudensack I kept the Shelton. My high-wall schuetzen rifle is not original (except for a large percentage of original parts, of course) so I went with what felt good and never looked back. I only wish they were still available to install on a couple of more projects!
Charlie the Frog
Froggie If you got one. Have some castings made.?? Whitey
I bought this lever back in the late 70's, don't remember who I got it from. It was a cast lever that took lots of work to finish but well worth the effort.
I like this Pope-style lever for both offhand and bench rest shooting. Does anyone make these nowadays?
http://www.singleshotrifles.com/levers.htmlBTW, is that rifle really as red as it appears? Maybe my LCD screen is overly red but that thing is bright!
I've used most of 'em and although the Shelton/Remington is to me the most attractive, nevertheless the Pope fits my hand MUCH better!
Regards, Joe
Yep, quite a bit of red in that stock, I like red.
A friend of mine and I are always looking at reproducing finishes for rifles like the Winchester. They can be notably red, but this rifle seems at least as red as a Winnie and then some. I don't dislike it, but I have not seen a Ballard quite that way.
Brent
I don't remember all the details of this Ballard stock. When we put it together I do remember that the buttplate I had was a little short on top. If you look at the picture you can see the filler piece of ebony.
Michael, you're a big man and what buttplate fits you in offhand the best? I'm not tall,at 5'11 but misspent my youth as a powerlifter and none of the buttplates I ever tried allowed me to comfortably shoot offhand. They all seemed to want to fit at the elbow and not at the shoulder.My son is big too and would like a schuetzen style to shoot.
All the Schuetzen buttplates seem to fit okay.
I was taught that the pronged schuetzen buttplate does not go on the shoulder but at the top of bicep. With my rifle turned sideways to the ground with the cheekpiece straight up I slide the buttplate over the top of the bicep then rotate the rifle up straight which will bring the elbow 90 degrees to your body.
Does that make any sense at all?
The method I described above works really well (FOR ME) on rifles like the one below that have a deep schuetzen buttplate.
Yeah, I understand what you mean. They showed us that with the M14 with the trap open on the buttplate. I have tried that with the schuetzens in my buddies collection, a Zischang, a Berg,Schoyen and with my larger than average arms it is very tight to downright impossible to use. I just wonder what pattern buttplate would be the biggest. I like the ones with 2 fully developed prongs but I suppose looks might have to play second fiddle to practicality.I guess I'm asking what buttlplate allows the most room. I have a nearly finished buttstock for a Ballard and a hiwall in factory schuetzen style and I have access to pattern making and casting facilities to modify a buttplate to fit me and also fit the factory style inletting if need be.
I had/have the same problem, my big fat arms are too big and fat. I was fortunate enough to find a pronged buttplate made of german silver or some other sort ot alloy, so was able to bend the buttplate enough to spread the prongs enough to fit, sorta.
Regards, Joe
I cut out one to fit a long time ago out of wood and shaped it to fit and had some cast out of brass. Damn, they were heavy and didn't work on the Winchester pattern stocks. I want something that looks good and not too heavy.My buddy had a Marlin .22 lever with a pronged buttplate and it was really a good looking rifle but you had to be 10 years old to get the gun to your shoulder with the narrow buttplate.Looked great on the wall though.It's in a jewelry shop now and looks great on their wall too.
Michael, That Pope 3 finger lever looks like the casting that Paul Shuttleworth sells at CPA rifles.
http://www.singleshotrifles.com/levers.htmlEnjoying this thread!
Regards,Joe
I took the BallChester to the range this morning and tried a few different bullets at 100 yards. The Fuller bullet looks like it will work fine. A couple years ago I bought a 32-40 mould at action marked Carl Fuller, Carl lived in California and was the father of my late friend Bill Fuller of Cooper Landing Alaska.
Summer is half over so I need to get my good Schuetzen out and do what I do when the weather is good.
This will make a nice rifle for someone who is a traditionalist, on a budget and has the time to experiment.
Summer hasn't begun in MT...
Nice target.
Carl Fuller on the left, some guy in a big hat on the right.
Carl Fuller was a slug-gun guru, here is one of same guy with that big hat shooting a slug gun, pictures are from July, 1948.
Looks like a real "ELMER" with that hat.
Carl Fuller on the left, some guy in a big hat on the right.
LOL, first thing I thought when I seen the picture was that it looks like the guy on the left has his laptop sitting across his leg and they are checking out their favorite shooting forums on the net. Then I thought wait a minute, how could they get wireless way out there in the boonies.
John
Michael,
Do you know where those pix were taken?
Do I detect a holster on Keith's hip?
Steve
Do you know where those pix were taken? Idaho
Do I detect a holster on Keith's hip? I looked at the original under magnification and hard to tell, could be a holster,a pistol barrel or something else.
I was looking at the chamber cast of the BallChester a saw that it had a very defined throat. I dug out my old Lyman 323273 which is the Hudson bullet used in rifles that have been throated for it. Cast some bullets and took the rifle along to the range this AM. Had a bit of a headwind/tailwind but shows promise.
Next time I'll just pull the barrel off an action I need and NEVER shoot it!
Next time I'll just pull the barrel off an action I need and NEVER shoot it!
Why don't I believe you?
You don't believe me because of my past history of saying one thing and doing another
Micheal,
I have a friend who wants to shoot schuetzen rifles with us and is looking for a budget minded traditional rifle. If the "Ballchester" is for sale, please contact me at jsmccash@yahoo.com .
Rough castings of ball and spur as well as Pope style levers for Steven's rifles are availible from Schuttleworth/CPA for $20. I have take several and had them tig welded to winchester and ballard levers to make levers like the Pope style. I wouldn't want to cut a original lever but there are old modified levers out there that make good projects such as this.
RHD45: The same goes for your issue with the pronged buttplate. Schuttleworth has several buttplate castings. Pick the style that fits your taste and stock style and remove the top prong. The lower prong is the only one needed. The purpose of the schuetzen stock is that the rifle is balanced on your left fingers with the forearm transfering the weight of the rifle to your hip through the bone structure, not your muscles. The hook holds the rifle in place under the arm. Your right hand guides the rifle and rest the hand and provides a perch for your trigger.
German schuetzen rifles are designed exclusively for offhand shooting. They only have one buttlate prong and most have a extension on the right hand side of the stock for the thumb of your trigger hand to rest on, giving more control without wrapping your thumb around the tang.
Scott
Scott, I have had a ton of mail,PM's and such asking to buy the rifle. It's a fun rifle but not my thing as I just wanted the action.
I will sell it but not sure a fair way to who should get it or what the price should be.
Any feedback from the gang would be helpful.
If anyone has a Ballard No.6 action in nice shape they would go to the head of the line.
Anyone who still has an interest in this rifle please write me at mjpetrov@acsalaska.net
