Not to rub salt in wounds but the Challenge isn't one any more. Ideas?

Elaborate a bit, please. What's missing? challenging targets or challenging shooters? I had to cancel my planned first trip at the last minute, so I have no firsthand knowledge.

Parkers won the last three years. What is team L C missing?

Good shooters???

A good one Walt!

My idea is that you remember it's a fun shoot with proceeds donated to a worthy cause.

Maybe what's missing is Team Fox.

I heard the LC crowd won the hammer event.

The shoot has first class spirit and commeraderie. Regardless of who wins it is an event worth watching or participating in.

Good shots are cheered for by both teams. Great guns fill the racks and are in use on the field. Guys that shoot 10k rounds a year at clay are competing next to guys that hunt grouse and may fire a box of shell in a season. Both types are show respect for the other. How often do you see that in a typical event?

This is worth doing for a lot of reasons the least of which is who holds the cup for a year. Don't let the current run of wins by Parker reduce your interest in following or attending. Thre is a victor but there are no losers at the Parker/LC Challenge.

Jeff

Jeff

I wish to stretch Gaussian Bell to the right, put me down under 'Team A.H. Fox'.
Not sure the Team Fox could take them Parker boys, but surely Team Winnie Modelo 21 could kick their a$$!

I'll take a go at it. There are more Parker collectors/shooters, so it stands to reason a team made up of same will be on average better shooters.

It's kind of like why 1A high schools don't play 5A high school in football.

Nawwwww! It's the guns!!

It's proly the "Indian and the arrow" in this case. You know, with them stocks on lower grade guns prone to craaaacking perhaps them boys shot some weaking loads that put them at disadvantage against Parker gents shootin' them pigeon guns?

I have followed it since its; inception via the Parker Collectors site and the L.C. Smith collectors site. My overall impression is, they are a bunch of good sports having a lot of fun. No gloating, no sour grapes. They're all winners in my book.

I attended for the first time and Jeff is 100% correct- just a lot of fun. I didn't shoot good enough to make the Challenge Team, but did qualify for the hammer gun event. I thought the events at 5-stand had great targets and run very well by Rich, but the SC's was another story. For $40 you get to shoot 50 birds at SIX stations. That means 10 birds at one station and 8 at the other 5 stations. After waiting close to 45 minutes at the first station watching the same report pair and NOT shooting because there were too many shooters, we returned to the club house and got a refund. We spent our time shooting one of the 5-stands and looking at guns. Paul

As a whole, Team LC (when compared to Team Parker) is unfortunately lacking, as an organization, in the numbers of members who take clays shooting seriously. Additionally, Team LC is somewhat disadvantaged by the fact that the PGCA has a much larger pool of shooters from which to draw; and therefore enjoys a much larger pool of shooters from which to draw. But even though the LCSCA didn't do very well as a team this year (and in years past), Team LC did win the Hammer Gun event for the second year in a row; and also, this year's 12-guage main event was won by an LCSCA member using his LC. But in all honesty, the Challenge is now much larger than which team wins or loses; the Challenge has evolved into a special event that all who attend look forward to each year solely for the fun and fellowhip it generates, and the opportunity it allows for friends and collectors of all stripes to get together, very much like an great "family" reunion.

Can't be the guns.

There are a number of guys who are members of both organizations who shoot on each squad on alternate years. Both groups are made up of first-class guys (and a few gals) who enjoy their sxs of choice. Proceeds from the LC/PGCA shoot go to NRA youth shooting programs. Knowing the LC boys they'll burn some powder this year and be ready in '09.

Don't know the guys on the LC Smith team, but I believe three of the top four on the Parker team are NSCA competition shooters...two are Master Class and one is AA. Not your average hunter/sportsman shots when it comes to clay targets.

Not to spin this topic, and I am sorry if I offend anyone. What I would love to see is a Side by side sporting clays association started. That has nothing to do with the NSCA. Hold tournaments that all makers can partake in. In that it would have a vintager sub-class. I would put down my over and under to shoot these for sure.

Serious side by side shooters are a bit over scheduled at side by side clay bird events from coast to coast. They really don't have any extra days for sanctioned competitive sporting clays. On another point, the vendor presence at side by side events is as important to the event participants as the shooting competition. Really serious side by side competitors can participate in any NSCA shoot they wish. There are many NSCA shoots that would be of interest to side by side shooters. I would rather finish high up in an NSCA shoot, winning over a bunch of K gun and B gun shooters than to do the same at a side by side shoot. Side by sides are often shot in open box bird and Columbaire competition and win a few bucks occasionally.

Yes I am very familiar with competitive clay shooting. I do not agree with you that serious side by side shooters are over scheduled. As I believe we most likely don't agree with what you consider serious shooters. In serious I am assuming from your post that implies master class shooters. I personally know a bunch of guys that are serious side by side shooters oh but wait they are not master class so I guess they don't count. I am also aware we can shoot in NSCA events and that some shoots even have a side by side events. There is no one forcing anyone to shoot an event. If the event happens to be in your area and you want to shoot it atleast its avialble. Because you don't want something does not mean others don't want it too. I have heard all over the country guys say I wish there was more side by side shoots. I have shot the Worlds, Master's Cup, Seafood blast, Angle Port Open, and a bunch more big blast shots. I think if there were organized events that were not to costly and gave decent trophies out people would come to shoot them. Maybe a few bigger size shoots around the country that gave a decent side by side away to class winners. I do believe it would be a hit. I am not suggesting it would be the size of NSCA. Sometimes smaller is better.

There are a lot of SxS events- but no one list them all in one place. I didn't see where eightbore said "master class shooters". I just came back from the Southern and picked up two fliers from there. I wouldn't have known about them otherwise. There's also the Vintagers , and three in Michigan I can think of and another in Ohio I attend. As eightbore said you can stay busy whether a serious shooter or one for fun. paul

You like he are not seeing the point. Never mind I guess its to hard for you to understand.

Marine, maybe you can clarify your point. I missed it too. I shoot competitive SxS at NSCA tournaments and also do vintage type SxS shoots. Most all the registered shoots in my zone (#2) offer SxS events, and excluding the winter I can do one almost every weekend if I want to. The vintage type shoots are fewer but spring through fall there seems to be about 1 every 4-5 weeks or so within a couple of hours drive for me. Many of the Vintager chapters sponsor a shoot every month. Back to registered shoots you can certainly shoot a SxS at the main event in whatever class you're in, and be competitive in E through Master if the gun fits and you're in the "zone" that day. Net, there doesn't seem to be any lack of shooting opportunitioes for SxS gunners at least here in zone 2. You said you are from CT and I don't remember if that is in zone 2, but if it's in zone 1, I'm thinking the situation is pretty much the same there. Silvers

What I've seen of the Parker Boys, I'd think a challenge of a walk-up hunt would do with any gun - AND no stopping at the big SUV for milk and cookies along the way!

Silvers,

I am in Zone 1. I am well aware I can shoot a side by side in any class in NSCA. Here is the point. There are a lot of hunters/ side by side guys that would like to shoot side by side tournaments against their peers,In their areas. Most of these guys I know of don't want to belong to the NSCA. If there was a sxs sporting clays association to give attention to these shooters would be much better then what the NSCA does. I believe the more we cater to sxs sporting clays the more it will grow. I have shot sxs NSCA events. Most of them are also only 50 targets. I have nothing against the NSCA and I am a member. I shoot tournaments all over the USA when I am home. I am all for the vintagers and plan to shoot many of their events when I return home. I also think that getting the vintagers onboard with a sxs sporting clays association would make a huge impact. Maybe a quarterly or bi-monthly publication. There are a lot of options and a lot of great things that could be done with it. This is my opinion and I truely believe it would work and for the good of everyone involved.

SxS only shoots are great, more the better, but as soon as you start a "SxS Sporting Clays Asso., it will go hell in a heart beat! I know you won't buy that, but look at the NSCA, NSSA, Silhouette Rifle Shooting. The sprite of them are not anything like it was meant to be when they were set up. Special Guns and Big Money have morphed them and ruined that sprite for the recreational shooter, IMO.

You said:
"Maybe a quarterly or bi-monthly publication. There are a lot of options and a lot of great things that could be done with it."

Thats what will screw up the whole damn thing!
As soon as an Association is formed for anything that can be competitive, they totally forget how to KISS!

Amen to Don's post.

Don,

You have some very valid points for sure. None of which I feel can not be over come. I totally believe in K.I.S.S. and I understand the big money issue. I do not disagree with you on that at all. Personally if i were the one to start it and run it I would keep the industry out of it. Of course they (industry) would be more then welcome to have a booth at the shoots. Also unlike NSCA there would be no national headquarters. I would also try to keep it an open association were as there are no delagates. The by laws would be simple and common sense. Developed in conjunction with the sporting clays ranges and shooters. Everything would be voted on by the shooters. Each voice having a vote, majority wins. It would be a very open and welcoming association. The tournaments would not be madatory to being a member. As I feel this pulls away some shooters that are not the hardcore type. I know you are asking now why then be a member? Membership would have its privillages. Only members can vote. If a shoot has a limit to the number of people able to shoot it then of course members have first crack. The publication would be for members only. It would have features on clubs that support the sxs association. It would have shooter profiles and not just the top shooters in the country. Maybe have a member gallary were members can post a picture of there double guns along with pictures from shoots. What I see as the difining difference is would be its total involvement of the members. Maybe I am wrong but unless it is tried we will never know. Its easy to cast it of and point out the negatives, and its hard work to take the initative and do it. maybe I am the only one these days that still understands hard work and trying is better then never knowing. There is no reward without risk. If you fail at least you know you tried. Just my opinion.

Bunch of ole' SMITH-Corona typewriters? Perhaps Smith boyz can type better than they can shoot?

89, be careful what you wish for. No matter how neat it seems at the start, it will morph in no time.

Don

I am not in the position to do anything but suggest some idea's. I work in Balad Iraq. Morphing is fine provided you lay down the foundation and rules from the start. Besides doesn't seem guys on here are intrested. When I come home my plan is to shoot as much as possiable. If I had the intrest in it and thought it was something the sxs community wanted I would put forth the effort. I am not affraid of hard work and giving my time to something I love. The only true failure is not trying.