I'm going to be looking at a double rifle tomorrow- 450 3 1/4 "
I know nothing about them and am looking for advice on gauging pros and cons of the gun. Is there a difference between the ordinary caliber designation or were they all Nitro Express?
What should I look for in evaluating the gun? I am fairly proficient in sizing up shotguns but have no experience with double rifles.... What could I use this gun on as far as North American game? If this gun is in good condition and from a reputable maker (english/european)what would be a fair value?
Any value difference on hammer vs hammerless? The gentleman is selling on behalf of a widow and has no information except " you can come over to see it if you want"......I would not normally be interested , but I know the deceased was fairly well heeled and was known to own some rather nice old guns..
thanks and best regards,
JBP

J.B. a .450x3 1/4" is usually a black powder cartridge, earlier than the Nitro Express rifles. As far as what you could use it on, it is adequate for all the bigger animals like elk and moose, and for bears too. You could load it with black powder or with nitro for black loads (ala Sherman Bell) if you feel adventurous. It is very much like the Quigley down under cartridge which was .450x 2 7/8" which holds a little less powder. Use big bullets (like 535 grain ones) probably, but you need twist rate to be sure.

J.B.,

You want to go look at that double rifle. Jerry has noted that the caliber was originally black powder and plenty of doubles were made in .450 express, but .450 3-1/4" was the original cordite nitroexpress big bore and holds its place in dangerous game hunting to this day. Take a look at the proof marks and post them here if you don't have one of the proof house booklets. They will tell you roughly when it was proofed and so, likely close to when it was made. Plenty of references exist to track serial numbers down to year of build so post that, too.

Key is the condition of the gun and, other than the usual checks you would do for a double shotgun: on the face; wood to metal; dings, the bore is more complicated. The old cordite rifles tend to show some erosion in the rifling at the throat where hot-burning cordite touched first. That lowers value depending.

Is the rifle a hammerless sidelock or boxlock? If it's a hammer gun instead, does it have a safety (rare but, as with shotguns, not unheard of)? Is it a top lever or a Jones underlever or a snap action or what?

Is it a Rigby? They made the original .450 3-1/4" It's not likely to be an H&H; they made their proprietary .500/.450. Is it cased and if so, what tools are in the case beyond snap caps? What does it weigh? The older guns of .450+ are generally at 11 lbs. Nicer to have one just over 10 or 10-1/2 to carry all day. Length of barrels? The big doubles were at 24" generally by about 1905 or so, although a client could order the older 26" barrels.

What's it worth? Get some idea from gunsamerica.com and from the H&H website and from Lewis Drake website (latter two will give you the very highest end). You could easily be in the midteens or a good bbit more, although the .450 nitro is less desirable than the .470 that has readily available if very dear commercial ammo in (some) gun stores.

Expect the more knowledgeable will chime in.

Regards, Tim

I would take a good cleaning rod and some patches. You want to see how well the bores will clean up if they are dusty.

Just as important, you want to use the cleaning rod (with a rotating handle) to measure the twist. These rifles shot light bullets in slow twist barrels. Depending on what you want to do, and what you are willing to do, you may decide that the twist is not what you want or need.

Brent

and another thing. you want to see if their ia any info on the gun or from the widow with regards to a regulating load.

Brent

Did some one say Cordite?





Pete

That is cordite? I would never have guessed. Cool photos,
thanks,
Brent

If you get John Taylor's cartridge book it shows all the big game loads as well as some neat Cordite cutaways.

You come to realize as you read his book he generally judges cartridges in two categories - the big ones are good, the small ones not so good. Moreover, much of his opinion seems more centered around bullet design than the rest of the cartridge.

Disadvantages: ole' elephant cartridges are expensive to shoot, hard to regulate with modern components, and next to useless for game in North America.
The only advantage is you might find someone to buy it off you for more money assuming you don't pay for it too much in the first place. As Eightbore says the money on gun is made at time of purchase.... People buy these ole' doubles as room dressing and for investment purposes only.
Ask ole' Madam if she has graded Savage 99 in that collection. Ole' 99 in grade B or above, now there is the finest rifle ever made! My close second choice would be vintage Mannlicher Schoenauer in kal. 6.5x54mm.
PS. If you still want that two singles in one be sure to get a copy of Shooting the British Double Rifle by Wright and read it. You can skip the 'Paradox' section those things are next to useless.

Actually, I think the old Express cartridges are great for NA game. Their bullets are light and fast. But not too light for anything around this hemisphere.

Brent

True, some 'Express' cartridges are very suitable for NA game when one applies strict definition of this term coined by Purdey in mid 1850s. It's just that .450/400NE 3&1/4" isn't one of them.

I am more than a little confused here. He said .450 x 3 1/4". If you look at Lewis Drake's ammo selection and at others available on the internet the .450 x 3 1/4 usually has B.P.E. in it's name. There is little doubt that cartridge was later used as basis for the .450 cordite loading and the .450 Nitro Express, but I wasn't aware those loads were named as .450 x 3 1/4. So what should the proof markings be on the gun for the respective Black powder express; or Cordite/Nitro loadings.

J.B.

Let me give you a quick and very simplified summary of proofs.

If the rifle is the .450 3 1/4" BPE (black powder) the proofs will most likely be ".450 EX." and if London proof it will have the "Crown over V" mark.

Here is a photo of the barrel flats of my .500 BPE, a Purdey with London black powder proofs, made in 1894, the only difference being caliber (.500 EX):



For a .450 3 1/4" Nitro Express you will see nitro proofing, which is quite different.

Here is a photo of the barrel flats of my George Gibbs .450 3 1/4" Nitro Express, made in 1906:



Note that on the nitro gun you see "Cordite 70 - 480 MAX" which is the designation of the cordite load (70 grains cordite, 480 grain bullet).

You also see the nitro proof stamp (the flexed arm holding a schimitar over the letters "NP"). This mark came into use in 1903 and will not be present on an earlier gun.

These proof marks are in addition to the black powder proof marks already discussed, which you see also present.

I am no great expert on proof marks, and this is at most a very incomplete summary. Reference works such as Nigel Brown give extensive details, and even then you will encounter deviations or variations not documented. However, this should be somewhat useful when you look at the rifle today.

The .450 BPE and the .450 3 1/4" NE use the same brass. You can chamber the nitro round in the black powder gun. Don't try anything adventuresome until you have the advice of an expert.

The black powder gun should be lighter than a nitro. It will range between 8 1/2 and 10 pounds. The nitro gun will be 10 pounds or over, even up to 12 pounds for a very heavy one.

You will encounter hammer guns in nitro proof. Some were originally made for nitro, some were re-proofed from black.

Likewise, you will encounter hammerless guns in only black powder proof.

It's important to know the difference.

Value depends on many factors and cannot be estimated from what little information you have at this point.

Feel free to contact me if you want to discuss this further. I might even be interested in the rifle.

Good luck,
Curl

P.S.

Birmingham proof marks are somewhat different, but follow similar patterns.

Of course it is. Why are you being foolish?

A Savage 99 lever the finest rifle??? I don't know about that either. Two owners of 99's I know were disgusted and traded them in for Remington bolt actions.
All the best

Ouch - that hurts!

Ah, the voice of no experience.

J. B.:

The description is too general to provide much specific help.

A .450 3 1/4" could be either a Black Powder Express or a Nitro Express. Both were, and are, referred to as such. The .450 3 1/4" BPE was the .30/06 of it's day in Britain and Europe, and was very common there. Nice examples were easy to find and reasonably priced not long ago, but not any more. The good ones are difficult to find now, and prices are up substantially. The .450 NE is a fine dangerous game round, and double rifles chambered for it and in good condition are very valuable. Generally, the Nitros are substantially more valuable than the BPEs. Hammer vs Hammerless doesn't effect value all that much with BPEs, but does with Nitros.

Let's assume the rifle is British (chances are, but of course it could also be from the continent). Look at the flats. A full Nitro Express built before 1904 will be marked: "Cordite 70 grs. - 480 grs. Bullet Max'm". There will be no Nitro Proof mark. A full Nitro built after 1904 will be marked: "Cordite 70 - 480 MAX" and will bear a Nitro Proof mark (crown over NP for Birmingham; upraised arm in armour embowed holding a scimitar over NP for London). If these marks are absent, it's a BPE. If the rifle isn't British, photograph the flats and water table and post them here.

Evaluating a fine double rifle is more complicated than doing so for a double shotgun, but you should be able to get a general idea on your own. However, if it looks good, unless the price makes it a blind man deal, get it to a pro for evaluation before you bite.

There's good news for the .450 3 1/4" from Hornady. They will be offering .450 Nitro Express factory ammunition soon, as well as components. They're made brass and bullets (I had inert sample cartridges at SCI) and are now working up their load. The brass will be correct for handloading the .450 BPE as well, and cast bullets appropriate for the BPE are readily available from a number of sources.

Brent,
Why does that hurt????
Do you happen to be a Savage 99 collector???
All the best

No, I actually sorta like'em, but they are too modern for me. Nearly bought one once but took a Belgian BLR instead. Big mistake that was.

I just think of "upgrading to a Remington bolt rifle" to be more or less like commenting to someone that he ought to "upgrade to a Remington 870".



Brent

Brent
Good point, Savages are a nice looking firearm I'll have to admit and the term "upgrade to a Remington", other than their SxS's, of course, does hurt.
All the best

True, certain young laddie who works for a Clifornia maker can adjust that wedgie between them barrels in shed on co. range in 2 to 4 hours using specially loaded Superior Ammo fodder. Experience and know how helps a lot.

With marrage of Ruger (Numero uno in .450/400) und Hornady (ammo) this caliber is just as desirable as it's close matey the .470NE.

I have .300Savage and .375Winchester, but could use all original oldie in above average condition in kal. 5.6x52R. I will pay you top dollar for it.
PS. I promise big premium for original Lyman 6 folder and combo ivory folderv sights.

.22 hi-power?

if its a nice rifle and a fair price buy it,. blackpowder proof or nitro.it would be a really fun gun.and you will learn a lot.(i built a 450 3 1/4 a on a farquharson(i built the action, but iam using the sharps basic case)i have test fired the barreled action and am making a stock pattern.it has a very big bang.also any gun of this type is going to be a reloading proposition.and will spice up any hunt.mc

"Evaluating a fine double rifle" thing is pure bull!
First things first - do you want to play around with an olden obscure cartidge.
My Westley Richards 360 No3 Case Express double rifle was an easy enuff deal, the hand making of the cartridge was hell!
Thats the diff ol'man!

J.B.,

You were going to look at that rifle on the 14th and it's now the 18th. Please report...

Regards, Tim

Sorry Tim,
not much to report - hammer Woodward with poor bores and not well kept up. Not up to salvage.
best regards,
JBP

J.B.,

Pity that. Would have been vicariously good if you'd found a keeper.

Was it a BPE or the Nitroexpress model?

Regards, Tim

BPE all the way - no NITRO proofs.

I appreciate all the info from everybody- in about 3 years ( retirement) I'm " fixin" on spending alot more time outdoors and goin " old school" all the way.
see ya!
- JBP

Hello!
Would you be so kind and tell me what do you think about this double, please?
Its for sale here in Slovakia for 2300euro,as made by scottish Alexander Thomson and son 450 express, seller said that gun has modern rifling for jacketed bullets, made after 1890,barrels are 28inchs long.Thank you very much. Martin

From the width of the action and the original proof marks it appears to have been built as a Black Powder Express.

The added marks do not appear to be any sort of official proof house marking.

Assuming the bores are in good condition and it locks up snugly I would only use it with Black Powder loads or “Nitro for Black” loads which are designed not to exceed black powder pressures.

Do NOT confuse .450 Nitro Express with .450 Nitro for Black, even if they both seem to fit the chamber . It is like the difference between using a heavy steel hammer and a wooden mallet.

Try to get a copy of Graham Wright’s Book “Shooting the British Double Rifle”

Thank you very much, is it possible that those markings are from India? How can I check how tight is it? What is ok for doubles, just test with sheet, piece of paper in the action?