I have a nice pair of Mod 12's from the 50's--one a 16 nearly in perfect shape and a 20 ga vent rib--totally reblued and refinished by Simmons. Only problem is they are both full choked an not really useful to me. Should I sell them as is? Or 1) open the chokes or 2) put choke tubes.
I am thinking the VR 20 would be about perfect for skeet if it were opened up and the 16 is nice but I don't really need it and it certainly isn't useful with a tight choke. Thanks!

O/T --- Mr. Gill, I have mailed your Rem 17 receiver via Reg. USPS a few days ago. Reg. mail always takes longer. FWIW, Ken

Original 16ga M12 in top shape can bring in pretty penny, so I would not modify it. Local shop had one (16ga/28" MOD) with minor wear priced at $700 and it sold. The M12 is best finished gun in slide action category. Unlike ole 37s they're not sleepers pricewise nor as portable as LWT 31s, but certainly best finished and best lookin in trombone category.
PS. 16ga.com might be good place to move that 16, but don't expect to get top price, because most of those penny pinchers think candy bar is still 5 cents!

I certainly wouldn't hesitate to modify the chokes on the 20ga which has already been removed from collector status by being reblued and refinished. I don't like screw in chokes so would choose to have fixed choke opened to skeet. The way you stated condition I am not sure whether the 16ga is refinished or not. If it is refinished modify the choke. If original and not useful to you - sell it. Personally I would have no problem modifying the choke on that one either - but then I have been known to open chokes on Parkers and other classic doubles to suit my needs.

If you're going to keep them, make them suit your desires. If you're going to sell them, don't change anything.

That's pretty good advice.

What's up with the model 17? That sounds pretty interesting.
Best,
Ted

I would not change any old gun like you have. Messing with the chokes will make it worthless. Get a nice double for skeet and you won't regret it. The price you pay to put in choke tubes will buy you a nice used 870 if you must have a pump gun. Good luck.

gil-

I have a M12 Featherweight (12ga) that I bought fairly cheap because it had a Polychoke on it. The Featherweight was a pretty limited run by M12 standards and I thought finding an original barrel with IC choke would be impossible. To my surprise, it proved to be no problem (in fact I found a brand new barrel).

So perhaps rather than modify either M12, you might wish to hunt down a second barrel for each that best suits your needs and that way you can keep your shotguns as original as possible. In the event you find a second barrel and isn't exactly what you want you could modify it without consequence.

Doug

Ted: The M 17 is one that Ken did some (absolutely beautiful) scratching on for me. A favorite dog who crossed the Big Divide last fall on one side and a Desert quail (Gambel's) on the other. I will post appropriate photos when it arrives, hopefully in the next day or two. That M 17 is the first shotgun I ever owned, it was under the Christmas tree 50 years ago. It belonged to my grandfather; he made the stock on it and it is beautiful as well. It does have a Polychoke but that's what people used in those days so I kinda like that as well.

gr - load and shoot spreader wads in your two guns for some time. If you find you like the guns and more open choke you can either keep loading spreaders or you can then open the chokes knowing you will likely keep the guns.

The Remington 17 sounds interesting. I have one that I should sell, since, it hasn't been used in a very long time. It was my first repeater, but, many more have come and gone.

Show us pictures when it is done!
Best,
Ted

Gill,

I am very much looking forward to your pictures of your model 17. I picked up a nice first year 17, #51xx. Unmolested and different in a few ways from the other 17s I have/had. My go to gun is a 17 deluxe with a poly. I shoot it very well and it patterns really nice for a 20.

Ted,

I'll always be running a rescue service for 17s so if you really need to sell I'll either have a home for it or find one for it!

Tim,
"Need" isn't really the operative here. I just notice so many folks re-discovering a gun I cut my teeth on, and helped a bunch of other people, mostly kids, do the same with. It makes me sad, in a strange way, to see it back in the corner of my safe, second barrel propped up against it, and I've just moved on to bigger fish, it seems. I don't use it.
I'll keep it in mind. Thanks.
Best,
Ted

sounds like the people who, when i was into colt SAA's told me shooting factory engraved guns would destroy their value. found out when i got rid of them later that their value was nowhere near destroyed.

several points:

1) i've never seen a worthless model 12.
2) don't mess with the original condition 16
3) the 20 would be a perfect skeet gun. opening the choke on it, in its refinished state, would not affect the value 5 cents in either direction. it most assuredly won't make the gun worthless.
4) going from a model 12 to an 870 is not moving in a smart direction
5) if you like the 20, do what you need to do to make it what you want it to be and shoot it till you wear it out.

[quote=fnb25][quote=Jimmy W] [/4) going from a model 12 to an 870 is not moving in a smart direction.

That 'sorta depends on some other pertinant facts, don't you think? A model 12 never broke a single target more than an 870 simply because it was a model 12. Fact is, if a guy is concerned about resale value and asking questions about impacting same, the gun stands a better than good chance of being on the chopping block someday. Sometimes, with some guns, it is nice to make the thing more useful to one's own form of shooting and not give a rat's pitoot about how it will affect any value down the road.

There is where an 870 is a force to be reckoned with.
Best,
Ted

Aw, geez, not this again...

I have a bunch of Mod 12's and 1912's, and a somewhat smaller bunch of 870's. If I could keep only ONE shotgun, it would be my 870 Wingmaster Magnum. Almost as well finished as my Win's and definitely more reliable. 870's do not need firing pins replaced.

I'd only modify a Mod 12 if it's a beater or if I could return it to original (like the upgraded factory wood I'm putting on my 20 ga factory VR two barrel set with matching numbers in 98% condition). Keep the original wood in a labeled box. Don't mess with the chokes on a nice Mod 12, especially if you have not yet mic'd the chokes, played with various loads, and patterned the guns.

Since I recently sold two Colt Pythons that were new, in the box with paperwork and the plastic locks still on the triggers- at the Louisville gun show, yes, they went for quite a bit more than the ones that were fired. Taking a nice Model 12 and putting screw in chokes? Don't be surprised if you don't get more than a few hundred dollars for it someday- if people even look at it at all. If you are going to use a Model 12 for skeet, it doesn't sound like you are going to try to be really competitive and will be shooting more for the fun of it. So keeping the Model 12 original and trying something else would be my choice. Original Model 12s are getting harder to find and taking a nice one and opening up the chokes? Have you given any thought to putting a thumb hole through the stock and maybe some camouflage tape on it? That would be cool. To each his own.

Or here is one way to look at it: which would bring more money- an original Model 12, 28 gauge or the same gun with a poly choke on it?

Yep, going to 870 is a big mistake for the following reasons:
1. It's still made so parts are readily available.
2. Newer ones come with Remchokes and we certainly would not want that feature especially using extended ones with gradual taper for steel, HS,....
3. Dual action rails assure that if one breaks the gun will still work. We certainly don't want that if it breaks it should be rendered useless!
4. When one takes the barrel off only the barrel comes off. Now that's too darn easy and the barrels tend to be cheaper. Now that's no go we should all go with that stupid Winchester design where the barrel and mag comes off as one piece that way it's more expensive to buy replacement.
.........

Come on, Jag, that "stupid" design was almost 100 years ago. At that time it was state of the art.

jimmyw, if the 20 ga in question were still in original condition you'd be right about altering the choke. but it isn't. one that's already a total refinish from one end to the other isn't original and opening the choke isn't going to make it any less original than it already is. the gun's a shooter already. it may as well be a shooter that's what he wants it to be. that's why i said leave the 16 alone: it still is original. 2 entirely different situations.

and besides that, i've come to believe it's sad to have a gun you've never shot. of the several dozen colt sa's i had the only ones i remember now from this point in time are the ones i shot. the others were just things in boxes stuck in a safe. yeah, the fired ones brought a little less than they could have but not a very significant percentage. it was worth the $$ to me to have actually fired and enjoyed them.

if you like the gun, make the gun suit you and enjoy it. you can't take $$ to your grave with you but - barring alzheimers - you'll have your memories right up to the last. i'd rather remember shooting and enjoying guns than "ooooh! i made $300 on that shotgun!"


i've had 870's and i've had 12's. there's nothing wrong with 870's. they're a piece of shooting machinery. but - to me, and i doubt i'm alone in this - they'll never be more than that. if we only used guns that were recent mfg, had spare parts readily availabe, etcetc i don't guess anyone on this board would shoot foxes, parkers, elsies, 100 yr old british guns, etcetc.

to a lot of us, there's more to a gun than it's $-value or it's pure function as a machine for firing shells.

For std. grade gun in terms of fit and finish it's number 1 pump gun out there. I'm sorry I didn't buy Mod. Super X-1 (field gr. no rib Mod choke) in new condition plus tags at Gander Mountain for $350. Now few years later I had to settle for like new Ithaca Mod. 51 which is not as tough a gun, but the wood is quite a bit better with some feathering in the butt end.
My Mod. 31 with alloy frame is nice handling gun, but doesn't come close to Winchester in terms of spit und polish. I might pick up ole' mod. 17 in near future. I like that anchor mark on the barrel, what can I say?

probably drifting off topic but if i remember correctly what canfield wrote in his book on martial shotguns, the military felt the 31 held up the best in combat of any pump used in wwii and the model 12 was a close second. i've only owned one 31 and have to admit i liked it a lot, particularly that wide open unimpeded loading port.

i've never owned a 51 but a buddy did. had some problem with it he never could get corrected. but again if i remember right, brister wrote that it was the best gas auto at the time. i never wanted one because of the aforementioned problem.

roger

The way I read his post is: the 16 gauge is in near perfect condition and the 20 has only been reblued and refurbished. Rebluing by Simmons won't reduce the value that much. Simmons reblued and refurbished my Model 21 twenty gauge and I'm sure now that it is back in like new condition that I'll be able to get more than the $2800.00 that I paid for it a few years ago....... Put a nice Model 12 20 gauge with a vented rib (that has been gone through by Simmons) next to one with screw in chokes on a table at a gun show. Ask the same for each gun and see which one sells first. So, yes, putting in screw in chokes will decrease it's value even more. But it's his gun so he can do whatever he wants. I took it he was asking for advice so I gave him mine.