Unfortunately, I bought a copy of Larry Brown's "A Pheasant Hunter's Notebook." By the time it got here, he and his little buddy Robert CHambers once again polluted the board with their usual shenanagens. I will no longer support anything Mr. Brown does and sincerely regret having bought the book.

I read one chapter before the last pissing match began and can't see myself reading another word. I am giving serious consideration to burning the book and mailing the ashes to nayone who wants them. I will include a picture of the flaming book so you will know I did not just get some ashes out of the heater in my shop.

Does Robert Chambers have a book? If so, I may buy a copy, burn it, and send the ashes to Larry. And maybe I should send the ashes from Mr. Brown's book to Robert. I am totally disabled and money is in short supply these days, but I can;t stand the thought of reading another word by either on them.

I read 2 boards every day, checking both several times every day. I post on the other board a lot, and very rarely post here. on the other board, I put three people on my "ignore" list, and what do you know, I almost never have to read a pissing match these days.

I stopped reading threads on this board when Robert and Larry would start their usual postings. But I would then read where a reference was made to the pissing match threads where useful information by other people had been posted after I stopped reading. So I wade through the pissing match searching for posts by people who were interested in spreading knowledge, as opposed to making posts to show their superiorty to us mere mortals.

Two men have almost taken this board hostage. That is totally rediculous. Dave posted a warning to folks about this same thing a month ago. The 2 offenders he mentioned the most have really chanegd and been helpful and friendly in their posts since that time. I wish Mr. Brown and Mr. Chambers would decide to make a similar change, or just leave the board all together.

edited for spelling

Amen Marc, This is why I hope Dave never opens a Politics Forum on this board. Too many people can't seem tp simply agree to disagree and let the subject drop.

Cary

I certainly agree with one name you mention, and would add a couple more, but I have not seen Larry Brown engage in the slanderous "pissing match" to which you refer. Maybe I missed one, and I won't bother going back over them again, I don't enjoy them either. I don't intend to be acting as anyone's defense attorney, I think Larry Brown is perfectly capable of mounting his own defense should it be needed, but what I have read of his postings has seemed in a much different tone and character than the other gentleman to which you refer. Maybe you and I simply see things differently, or, as I said, maybe I didn't see the post you did.

I agree with the ol' Chief. The word here is TONE. And I don't know too many people a person can learn more from than Larry Brown. And when he states his case he uses the proper TONE. Screaming and cussing have no place here. And I have never seen Larry act like anything other than a gentleman. So just remember Marc, don't get your shorts in a twist. It's only a computer. Just do as most of us do and take in the info that you can learn from and enjoy. Don't get that upset by another's posts. Just take it as....well....entertainment. But you might want to open that book up again because you might learn something. So, with all due respect, Marc, just let it go. And remember what I always say: "A bird in the hand is worth a push in the bush."

Marc,
In the spirit of your post about ending all this, let's let this thread drop too. The message is clear to all here.

Good Ole' Larry has been valuable contributor to this board for years. I don't get it...........

Sounds like somebody got outta bed on the wrong side this morning...

Don't know Chambers, know Larry fairly well. You're way out of whack here.

Is this like a bra burning ?

Marc, I am unsure of the post to which you refer, but this has me puzzled. I know Larry only from this and other boards, but what you report seems way out of the norm for him. I have traded jabs with him in good nature as well as disagreement on subjects, but never with ill will, and certainly never with any returned. Larry is a knowledgeable hunter and shooter and shares his knowledge as freely - sometimes opinions - as freely as many of us do. I am just surprised at what you say here. But like someone else has said, perhaps you have seen something we have not.

Ditto Perry's post.
Larry is a friend of mine and a man that I truly respect for so many things. One is his absolute integrity.
Robert has made a pretty good turn around and is mellowing in his old age.:}
I wonder the reason for airing such a post, as you made, on a rather gentle forum. This is out of character for Dave's gun room.
Best,
John

Mark,
Please allow me to purchase the book from you plus whatever you want for handling. The truth is, I've always admired the guy's ability to speak carefully, accurately and not leap to conclusions as I so often do. If his book is anything like his past posts, I'm sure it's worth whatever price he asks. I didn't know that he had a book out or I would have bought a copy already. Should you decide not to accept my offer, hopefully I can get a copy from Sarah Loos, the gun book dealer.

Sorry I rocked the boat...I'm especially sorry that you find it so upsetting. Please don't take the bantering to heart. Larry purposely stepped on my crank, so I purposely stomped on his.
He knows now, that I rarely post info that I can't back up with reference or photo, and hopefully he's got whatever out of his system. The academic foibles of Larry and especially myself, won't reflect in his writing abilities.
Pick any other member on this board and read his past posts for comparison. You'll find Larry (Larry's stuff) is consistantly in the top 5% of many well researchered contributors. I know some about French and Belgian guns...and I can tell you, Larry's posts are accurate, or he shuts up.

Personally, I can't imagine how you could go wrong with a book by Larry Brown...but I doubt he would sell me a copy now that I stomped him twice as hard as he stomped me.

Try to look at it from a different perspective...as with all academic pursuits, often things become competitive and the ability of the researchers is tested against one and other...trial by fire if you will...it's not necessarily an unhealthy part of the process.

You know what they say...if you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.....although it might have been better if we both stayed on the porch this time.

Seriously, it doesn't get much better around here than Larry's stuff...how much do you want for the book?

Robert,
Thank you for this post. I hope we can all heal and move toward better things.

Well done Robert...Geo

I've read at least a thousand posts by Larry Brown, and one by Marc Stokeld.
I'll take Larry any day of the week!

Robert:
You climbed way up on the ladder of respect with your post.
There have not been more than a few researchers, in your class, that have readily posted here. Thanks for that sharing and your decision to join the gentle ones.
Best,
John

Well said Mr. Chambers.

Robert, very classy move. My hat is off to you sir.

I too have exchanged jabs with Larry on other boards and while he is relentless at times, he has always been respectful, knowledgeable, and courteous with me. I enjoy his writings on guns and hunting, and consider him to be a valuable asset on forums like this.

Lastly, Mark I also agree that some of these "pissing matches" can get old --but then again I do not have to read them and choose not to most of the time. Censorship, however invoked, I do not believe is the answer.

Well, I always did say that everyone has the right to get a hair up his rumpus once in a while. What really scared me, Robert, when you said you were going to check all of Larry's posts for accuracy if he didn't apologize. I hope no one ever does that to me. I'd be sunk. Which brings to mind what my grandmother always used to tell me, "A bee in my bonnet is worth a push in the bush." I hope you all remember that. Best wishes.

I'll bid a dollar more...

I thought the first 3 posters had a good idea, so I was going to just let this thread die. I see where others wanted to keep on. Folks were complimenting RObert, so I just "unignored" him.

Mr. CHambers-
I applaud your tone in the post above.

You know far more about the history of of our passion than I would ever know in three lifetimes. YOu have information just bouncing around in your head that goes far beyond what I could look up in ten hours of searching. If anyone can add to this board, it is you. I am sorry that you find folks' posts as personal attacks on you at times. I have never read it that way, but then we all interpret things based on our life's experiences. I urge you to keep spreading your vast knowledge of our passion and stick to the facts.

Mr. Brown-

I have always read your posts and articles. I thought enough of your knowledge and work to buy your book last week. Also, when you and RObert started your last tit-for-tat, I had Volume 1 Issue 2 of the DGJ n my coffee table with your article on doubles for pheasants bookmarked. Yes, I was in the process of going through the Index and Readers and looking up your old articles. THAT is how much I respected you and your knowledge.

But then the last tiff started. I was taught from my earliest memories that gentlemen do not act as you do. When someone says soemthing rediculous to me, that the appropriate response from a gentleman is to just ignore it. This was literally beat into me. The reason is that people around you will see your true character. If you have to tell people how you "are," then you really "are not." If you have to tell people you have class, knowledge, or whatever, then you don't.

You used to not post like this. I saw it most when dealing with Mr. CHambers. But I also found it happening all year long in other threads. As I mentioend earlier, I am now disabled. Many days I cannot leave the house, so I read a lot. In doing near daily searches on this board, I found you tit-for-tatting any time someone disagreed with you. From my upobringing, your actions are unbecoming to a gentleman.

For a good example of this behavior, go look up all of the "XXV" and "25'" threads from earlier this year. You made personal attacks when someone disagreed with you, even though they were saying nothing about you personally. just because they had different life experiences and opinions than you, you had to put them down. You did not do this three years ago. And anytime Robert says soemthing sorta cross to you, then you pounce back.

What changed? Why do it now? Again, from my earliest days, I was taught that you never "stoop to their level" and always maintain your normal moral position. So why did you stop doing that? In the past I always considered you above this.

I am still agreeing with the first three posters in this thread that let's just let it die. I don't know why others want to keep it going. i posted this out of sheer frustration of having this board hi-jacked every day. Folks, let it end here.

Larry, feel free to email me if you like. My address is in my profile. I sincerely hope "old Larry" will come back.

It is nice to see a real man stand up. Well done Robert. You might consider toning the competitive level down one notch in the future for those that have weaker stomachs. Trying to ignore the chaff more often would be helpful also. Like I have said before, being ignored is tough medicine for those that need attention. Usually twice ignored is enough for them to move on.

Mr. Chambers, way to go!

After reading many of your very well documented posts with their profusion of photos and catalogue references, I am not really surprised with your reaction. It does belong perfectly.

Best,

JC

While I think it's nice that members of this forum are so quick to forgive and forget, I'll reserve any pat on the back for Mr. Chambers until such time as he offers some apology to those members he has unjustifiably attacked by resorting to name calling and vitriolic rhetoric which was uncalled for in the first place. In fact, I believe before he can be so warmly congratulated for being a "class act" he should go well beyond offering to simply buy Mr. Brown's book and offer an apology to all readers of this forum. He has more deleted posts on this forum than anyone else...and the reason for it might be labeled by some as a dysfunctional personality disorder.
Until such time as Mr. Chambers does show some remorse and can control himself to stop using words of rage such as "STOMP" like he did in his post for Mr. Brown, I think the comments of "class act" are premature. Just my opinion of course.
Sincerely,
Sharpsrifle
(aka - "deceitful manipulative dog" courtesy of Robert Chambers)

The mea culpas are significant, subordinating personal frailty to commitment to the board. Noting the "totally disabled" in the first post, I put it down to a bad day. I've valued the generosity of both members for a long time.

I hadn't intended to comment here, and like others would've been perfectly happy to let this thread die. However, I'll offer the following:

Some of what we discuss here is opinion. (Is an NID really "butt ugly"? Is the Winchester 21 the finest American double ever made, or a clunky, overpriced gun that just happens to be marked "Winchester"?) Some of what we discuss here is fact. When it comes to facts, I try my best to post very carefully. Before I ever wrote anything about guns, dogs, birds, or hunting, I found myself translating into French instructions on how to disarm letter and package bombs. One learns caution from experiences like that.

I've also learned a lot from this BB, and I don't want anyone "learning" from me unless they're learning the right things. If I'm not sure of my facts, I'll leave the door open that someone else may know more, or that I may not have it right. Subsequent posts may--and often do--add to my own knowledge. And if I do screw something up, as we all do, I won't hesitate to say "Woops, my bad." I'll admit that when it comes to issues of fact, I do have problems with people that are unwilling to admit error and then drop the subject. If we're not passing on good and accurate information here, then we're doing a disservice to those who participate--and to a lot of "lurkers", who never post but come here looking for solid information about doubles. I'm in the process of writing an article on the care and feeding of old shotguns, and while I participate on a number of discussion boards, the one I'm going to mention as being THE place to go, with the most knowledgeable posters, is this one.

Some discussions, whether of fact or opinion, do get heated. I have been involved in some of those. Sometimes I get a bit heated myself. Must be a cantankerous streak showing up, now that I've received my first SS check! But I certainly try not to "stomp" on people. And I can't recall ever having called anyone here a liar. If someone says, "Brown, you said . . . ", I would rather they used the quote function, because as a writer, being misquoted bothers me perhaps more than it might bother others. I have enough stuff out there in print and enough stuff on these boards that you can certainly find things to take me to task about if you look, without inventing things I never said (or taking something way out of context). I also try to be cautious in responding to what others have written, for the same reason.

"Look in the mirror" is probably good advice for all of us. I've written things that, on reflection, I wish I hadn't written--or said differently. That being said, if what I post concerns matters of fact, I do my best to back up those posts with sources, quotes, etc. Seems to me we should all be willing to do that--especially if we require those standards of others. I recently attributed a quote to Voltaire which someone said, "Looks like he never said that." And I'll be darned--it seems he didn't. And I studied the guy, at the graduate level no less. (Sometimes you learn surprising stuff, not gun related, on this board.)

As for my book, although I've gotten into a number of discussions (mostly on other boards) about chokes and loads for pheasants, I did my best to be particularly open-minded about the subject. I concluded the chapter on chokes and loads this way: "If what you're using puts birds in the bag, in a condition fit for the table, then you've got a winner." A similar formula is probably a good one to follow for wrapping up discussions here, when it's a matter of opinion and not fact.

If Marc decides he doesn't want my book and sends it to Robert, I'd offer to Robert--or to Marc for that matter, if he decides to keep it--to send it to me and I'll inscribe it. Whichever one ends up reading it, I hope they find it contains more light than heat on the subject of pheasant hunting.

I could not agree more with Sharpsrifle.

I could not have said it better. I have known Larry for many years and the person Stokeld describes does not come close to reflecting our own Larry Brown. Shame on you Mr. Stokeld for feeling it necessary to air your dirty laundry publicly. If YOU find a post offensive, move on. I would have done the same with this post EXCEPT for the fact you are attempting to denigrate a friend's reputation. Shame on you Mr. Stokeld.

Must agree somewhat with Sharpsrifle. I don't understand a personality who would post tens of thousands of words of hard earned research material, then accuse readers of stealing it from the computer screen without proper payment. Luckily, I have no expectation of compensation for my research and empirical experience (sorry if that combination of words appears redundant), so will offer it free to anyone who is interested enough to read or listen.

I used to know a pretty good psychologist who had gotten to the point in his long career that the first question he wanted to know when seeing a patient was "how the meds were working."
Cheers, Jake

One hundred and ten & 1/2 %

Okay, enough of this!! We all have to come to terms here. I happen to know that the person we "think" we know as Larry Brown, the writer, is actually a stooped over, shriveled up little old lady by the name of Modene Gunch who once worked for the real Larry Brown who has been deceased for quite some time now. Modene, a.k.a., Larry, was so taken with the illustrious Mr. Brown (rumor has it that a love affair was secretly working there) that she has continued to write under the pseudonym Larry Brown. Therefore, due to her extended age and obvious frailty (the bravado in her writing is taken straight from a CIA Thesaurus on How To Sound Tough), we should all just let this die and let Modene / Larry continue to add her/his snippets of information that have brought such joy to them (RIP Larry) over the years. In order to settle this matter once and for all, if Larry (Modene) will be so kind as to send ME a copy of his/her latest narrative on pheasant hunting, etc (poor soul wouldn't know a pheasant from a parakeet!!), FREE of charge of course, I will be glad to read it and set the record straight regarding its readability and accuracy. (Modene, please don't forget to put the real Larry's rubber stamped signature and a short note to..., let's just say, "...To Perry, the greatest pheasant hunter ever...." etc, etc. You don't have to go into any dialogue on my wonderful silver head of hair and how I can't possibly be the 58 years old that I am rumored to be)

Whaddayasay guys?! Shall we kill this one.

Hey, I just couldn't resist it. (Larry, please be civil in the reply that I know is coming)

Perry,
You're light touch has brightened my day immeasurably. While I don't know Ms. Modene Gunch (aka Larry B.)personally, I will make it a point of purchasing "her" book on big game parakeet hunting in the midwest. Perhaps Ms. M would post here how the book written under the pen name of Larry Brown can be purchased...hope it's on-line.
Thanks again.

Who the heck was Capt. Woodrow Call?

Jake

I'll give yOu two bucks more for the book than Robert...and send Dave 10 bucks.

Jake,
Capt. Woodrow Call was the Texas Ranger (Tommy Lee Jones) who partnered with Gus McCrae (Robert Duvall) in Lonesome Dove.

The actual quote is: "I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it".

My signature tag was a paraphrase, but it is a sentiment I believe in, so I changed it to be accurate...as is fitting with the sensibilities of this forum.

Joe, you're a stitch. Marc, I've spectated some of the Brown/Maloney one-on-one matchups (the XXV thread was a good example). They're just sparring. Tedious as their quotidien quotational quibbles may be, both know where the line is and if they appear to cross it occasionally with each other, they certainly haven't with me. I don't know Larry or Jack; don't know Robert. I know my own tolerance level for both evil-doing and excuses and we're all getting a pretty good sense of Dave W's recently. His playpen; his rules. I'm glad he stopped saying "Don't make me come down there!" and knocked some heads together. Eventually, we'll get a pretty good idea of which ones deserved it.

jack

I've never seen eye-to-eye with Larry Brown on ANYTHING, but to lump him in - is a big mistake.

Folks-

Larry and I have offically "burried the hatchet" and things are back to where they were a week ago; i.e. I think so much of him that I buy his books and track down old articles he has written. I do this so I can hopefully glean a little from his vast experience of chasing wild roosters! As I told Larry, he literally knows more about chasing pheasants that it is physically possible for me to learn during the remainder of my life. Heck, everyone has a misunderstanding every now and then, myslef inlcuded.

As an added bonus, I always remember the fact that he is married to a read headed woman! Anyone who has read my posts on this board over the past 10 1/2 years knows that means he has excellent taste in my book!!!

Please just let this thread end with this post. Let's get back to talking about doubles and hunting.

Perry, that's funny! But I wish you'd made it maybe Diana Rigg (I'm dating both of us there) who'd worked for the deceased Larry Brown.

Yes Larry, it would be better to picture Mrs. Peel doing your writing, :-)



JC

What chokes should I use in my 410 with #12 shot for late season pheasants?

Now THIS is funny!!!

Larry, I couldn't resist!!! Actually, although the mention of Dianna does in fact date us, I still enjoy seeing her as she introduces the Mystery on the public television channel now. Still a nice looking woman. But Modene, well, what can I say. I suppose this means I don't get the free book?!?!?

Now look at what you've gorn and done! For the first time I'm (almost) in agreement with LG!!!
Km

Oh Man! I thought whole CIA department doing his writing, but you opened the secret... Mrs.Peel!

Since the .410 is often called (though erroneously) the 12mm & you will be using #12 shot, I would strongly suggest a constriction of .012" in each bbl. I think that after you have shot "AT" several of those long tailed birds you will derive an appropriate name to call this combo.

Some of the Hollywood's best efforts ever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVBjBClBSao


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23UhypY-pUg

"the 12mm & you will be using #12 shot, I would strongly suggest a constriction of .012"

Does this make what they call a "square load"? I've heard great things about "square loads" and would like to have one.

Uh oh . . . the secret's out! Russkies know about Mrs. Peel. The West is in serious peril.

Is that the same Mrs. Peel that I recall wearing the lovely jump suits?

The same Diana Rigg who played "Pussy Galore" in Goldfinger!!

That was a different Diana Rigg named Honor Blackman, Ron. The last few days on the board make "The Prisoner" with Patrick McGoohan seem more relevant than "The Avengers". And I always liked Johnny Rivers. Please don't tell me Kris Kristopherson wrote those songs also. Had to have been in short pants.

jack

Sharpsrifle -- Makes me smile to recall Woodrow's eloquence explaining himself to spectators after that cavalry scout provoked him to deliver a branding-iron whuppin'! Jay

You know I never did quite figure how you could take little round shot, drop them in a round hull over round wads & then fire them down a round tube with the powder lit by a round primer & end up with a "Square Load". I did at one point in time way back in the 50's load some B&P powder called "Nike". It came in litle square crimson colored flakes, maybe they made a sq load.

Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEwADbas7L0

You need Fuulish and Extra-Fuulish in that kiddie gun.
PS. I went to my fav Border's, but darn it they sold that copy of Lar's book, so I had to get 'A Hunter's Fireside Book-Tales of Dogs, Ducks, Birds & Guns ' by Gene Hill instead.

The confusion may stem from two sources: Diana Rigg replaced Honore Blackman on "The Avengers". And she also starred in a Bond movie: "On Her Majesty's Secret Service", the one that featured George Lazenby as Bond. Good movie, but too bad Connery didn't make it.