I have this 12 bore that is a rather smooth self opener. It has 28" barrels and weighs a surprising, to me, 5# 15 oz. Bores still perfect at .729". Gun was made between 1954-1961 when the firm closed in Birmingham. Edwin Smith was an actioner and gun maker from 1914 to closing. Serial #276. Can anyone identify the self opening system ?

Daryl,
If you post a couple pics of the action flats, knuckle, & barrel flats, etc. that would probably help to identify the system used…or at least provide some clues as to what type of system might be involved..

Here are the "inside" views.



I see from the Birmingham mark, that it was proofed in 1963, a couple of years after the history I read said they closed.

When assembling the gun, the forend needs to start out at about 45 degrees to the bore, then pressed down , lowering [raising] the cocking dogs, to then latch on the Anson push rod.

Daryl,
Well, from the last set of pics…I really don’t see any obvious clues as to what mechanism is being used to provide the power for the easy opening system.
Legit “self” openers usually have to have a camming system or some type of spring system (ie ejectors, etc) to provide the self opening or easy opener power.
If this is indeed an easy opener…the power would have to come from the cocking levers I would guess. Pics of the lockwork/internals etc would be nice.

I put a bit more info with the last picture above. I wondered if the pin placements might help identify the system.

I can't help you one bit, Daryl, but dang, what a fine piece! The wood, the engraving (wow), and the amazing condition. Really fine double gun. Thank you for sharing it with us. More photos...
JR

Some clues eliminate some systems.

Cocking dogs eliminate it from being a Baker system (think Lancaster 12/20, etc)

It’s obviously not any Beesley type system

It’s obviously not a H&H system


Possibly a Boss type easy opener? A pic of the internals would confirm.


Daryl,
Do the ejector stems have constant pressure on them? When the gun is disassembled, are the ejector stems sticking out like they’ve been fired?



No visible pin for holding the bolt system for the Smith easy opener…

It could be the later Churchill/Baddock patent of 1936 “jumping Jack” system that was a redesign of the Smith system?

No, the ejector stems do not jump out like some Cogswells. It seems a bit easier to operate than my turn of the century Purdey.

I’m thinking a variation of a Boss system. Have to see whats going on with the bar of the action. A pic with the locks removed would confirm it.

Does the gun open easy after it’s fired or does it seem to open easier when it’s unfired?

The gun , unfired, opens itself to the full open position. When fired, the gun comes open somewhat less forcefully until it reaches the ejector trigger position. Then hand applied more opening trips the ejectors.

Sounds very similar to a rare Boss “self opener” system. Pretty rare mechanism. The answer lies with when you take off the lock plates and get a good look at the bar, you’ll be able to see the v-spring limb fitted into the bottom of the cocking limb/lifter providing the power for the self opening system.

A variation of the Edwin Smith easy opening system used on Churchill guns is also entirely possible. I mean the gun is, after all, an Edwin Smith gun!! Is it THE Edwin Smith though….the patentee of the easy opening system bearing the same name, or a different Edwin Smith? I dunno.

I could be way off too!!

The action and lockwork looks like both of my Birmingham SLE's, which I do not believe are true assisted opening actions, despite the fact that they open easily. The pin pattern on your gun is identical to the patterns on mine, which I believe is standard Holland patterned lockwork.

I suspect your locks look something like this on the inside:



Outside view with pin pattern:



Action:

The pin pattern on the locks will have very little if anything to do with the actual mechanism used to make the gun either a self opener or easy opener.
Pins located on the action body itself will tell more.

I have seen something similar, possibly a Churchill but dont hold me to that . The back work locks give a clue that there will be springs of some sort on the cocking dogs/ lifters .Need to remove the locks to see .

Seasons greetings to all ,
Graham .

Daryl,
When you describe the gun as self opening, are you describing what it does when the gun is held level but upright and the top lever pressed?
If it is a true self or easy opener the barrels should start to open of their own accord (without the assistance of gravity) when the gun is held level but on its side.

Seasons Greetings!

Dan S. W. your pretty gun does look very much like the E. Smith. Whose name is on your gun ? Frustrating for us all , I am sure, but I am not quite ready to remove the locks, fearing replacement problems with the "unknown".

Parabola, your question is helpful. The gun held level to the ground, but on its side, opens full when moving the top lever when not fired. The gun in the same position , after firing, does not open when moving the top lever.

In general, it is a very finely fitted gun with that certain smooth feel that some guns have when opening and closing. lVery nice wood and unusual engraving. I had not guessed the gun was made in the 1960s, I first saw the gun about 15 years ago in the hands of a now deceased friend. The dealer who bought the estate guns kindly sold it to me just recently. It is as I remembered it.

Daryl, the gun I showed pictures of above is a nominal Edgar Perks made in the forties. It has chopper lump barrels like yours as well. No idea who made that one.

The other similarly configured gun I own is a Leech & Sons made by G&S Holloway. I have the records and original catalog entry on that one. No reference to being a self opener in either. Here are a couple pics of the action and locks on that one. Like I said, similarly configured.

Dan S. W., thanks for the pictures. Both very pretty guns. Do you know if your guns are "on the light side" like the E. Smith ?

Daryl, both of mine are standard game weights closer to 6 3/4 pounds. Don't remember exact weights, but certainly not as light as yours.

Dan S. W. thanks for the weight info. I just measured the barrels on the E. Smith. The chopper lump barrels are 27 1/2" long. An unusual length. Chokes are .018 and .028 with still the original .729 " max bore diameter. Minimum wall thickness is .028". Stock lop is 14 5/8" over checkered butt, so the only visible item possible related to the light weight is the barrel length.

Boss made a self or assisted opener with a spring that bears against the cocking dogs inside the bar of the action. I have pictures of it in one of my books, if I can find it I'll post a description. I can't recall if it is one of their patents or they just used it.

Page 28 in Shotgun Technicana by McIntosch and Trevallion shows a Boss system with a V spring that lies under the long leg of the cocking dog inside the action bar. This spring exerts pressure pushing the rear leg of the cocking lever up and the other end of the cocking lever pushes on the forend iron. Sorry I can't post a pic

NITRAH, That sounds right and is what LeFusil suggested. Is it possible to take a picture of the Trevallion page ? I have the book, somewhere in three rooms of books, but cannot see it at the moment.

I can text or e mail a picture, just don't have a hosting site. By the way Hollan pattern sidelocks have a spring in the bar also to push pressure on the cocking lever, but it is a small light spring. I suspect the one in the Boss system is much stouter.

NITRAH, my email is in my profile. I can post your pictures.

That is a pretty gun, Daryl.

Merry Christmas.

Best,
Ted

Here is the referenced page:

I talked to Douglas Tate, author on British guns, and he suggested the following on Edwin Smith. Of course no records are known to exist, but this is his take. It seems that gunman might have been spot on when he "remembered" seeing the assisted opener on a Churchill.

"Edwin V. Smith was a gun action maker in the Birmingham gun trade who is unquestionably most famous today for his Patent 372,035 of 1931for an easy opening side by side. Drawings (page 181 Modern Shotgun Vol, I Major Burrard, attributed to Rosson) show a boxlock, but the broad concept can be adapted to sidelocks too.

It’s a system most often associated with the Connaught by Westley Richards, the Hercules, and Utility by E. J. Churchill, the Regent, Eclipse and Norfolk models by C. S. Rosson. These guns were made in Birmingham, some by Keene & Curry and some undoubtedly by Smith himself. They have longer than usual cocking dogs and that cock springs in order to get the fore-arm onto the gun. Does yours?"

As noted earlier the forend of the E. Smith is attached in the method outlined in Mr. Tates last sentence.

I asked about the possible engravers of the Smith gun and Mr Tate responded. I find his conjecture interesting on the time when the gun quarter was altered for roads.

"The game birds are bog standard Birmingham game birds of the era. Busby & Stockton or Harry Morris are likely candidates.

And now for some conjecture: Your proof marks date from exactly when the gun quarter was destroyed to make way for the ring road. The old chap likely decided to hang up his apron rather than retire. The unsold barreled actions intended for WR or Rosson would have been proofed, stocked and finished then sent to a dealer. I'm guessing that 's why you have a Smith with the Smith name on it."

Great thread Daryl! That last paragraph from Mr Tate sums up a lot! Glad you got some answers on your “new” gun.

If you ever take the locks off, please post pictures. I would love to see if the mechanism resembles the pictures posted by Parabola in the patent thread. Particularly the cocking dog configuration.

Dan, I sure will post pictures. Thanks for your help . I am now a bit more confident to take the locks off as I got great information from borderbill and parabola on the thread "Searching for a UK Patent."