Fellows, ksauers1 recently posed a question about everyone's opinion of 27" barrelled shotguns, and the conversation made me think about an E. J. Churchill Premiere SxS 12 bore I have, with two sets of 25" barrels with the narrow Churchill ribs. The gun weighs exactly 6 lbs., and balances the same with either barrel set. It is fast handling, as one would expect, but doesn't feel whippy to me. I know Robert Churchill created a lot of controversy when he advocated the 25" barrel a hundred years ago, and it greatly spurred the sales of his guns, I just wondered what the general consensus was on even shorter barrels than 27". They still seem to spark some controversy, even now. It is no gun for clays, or anything of that sort, but a delight to carry in the field and, incidentally, proofed for 2 3/4"" (1 1/4 oz.) ammunition. Sandlapper

Depending on various factors, while I would not choose a gun with 25" barrels specifically for clays, they're not all the same. The example of the Churchill XXVs . . . those are guns that were built with driven shooting in mind. Basically to trick the shooter into thinking he was shooting a gun with longer barrels. That makes a difference.

Another example in my own experience comes from the Ithaca imported SKB sxs. The 20ga guns came either with 25" barrels, mostly choked IC/M, or 28" barrels choked M/F. The model 100, which had a splinter forend, is very light. I could never shoot one of those with 25" barrels well at all at skeet. With 28" barrels (and the tight chokes opened), they shot well for me both at skeet and in the field. Or give me a 280 with 25" barrels, which had the somewhat unusual combination of a straight grip but a generous beavertail forend, and I could shoot those pretty well. I think that the difference in both cases was the added weight up front: longer barrels on the 100'; beavertail on the 280.

This discussion brings to mind an old friend, that was temporarily addicted to 2" 12 ga doubles. He would be in love until he shot a round of sporting and even with light loads 50 or more shots convinced him they weren't practical. I suspect if we used the these shorter barreled guns in the grouse woods or on a quail plantation or even on one of the sporting courses I shoot at, where many of the targets are quick window shots, they would perform fine.
Not to change your subject but you mention the proof and 2 3/4" chambers. I have a couple old doubles that someone lengthened from 2 1/2" to 2 3/4". While I wouldn't have done that I am not too upset because with guns this light I use a much reduced load, 3/4 oz in guns originally proofed for 1 1/8 oz. I think a round of 25 shots with 1 1/4 oz in your 6 lb guns will have you rethinking that combination.

While they're not for me, I have hunted woodcock with a friend from the low country of SC who shoots a 20 ga., 25" barreled SKB, like Larry mentioned. Floyd is a death ray with that little gun. I'd never bet against him, using it in the woods. He's Gil's close friend and his SKB has been pictured on the annual game picture threads many times.

I shoot skeet with a Bill Hanus bird gun, and upland with a WC Scott "Orvis Best". Both are 25" and 28ga. One is 5lbs 13 and the other is 5lbs 14. They are light and lively. Wouldn't change a thing. I did have, at one point, a Dickinson Estate cut to 25" and re-choked. It weighed 5lbs 2. I never thought I would say a gun could be too light. That one was, and it was VERY wippy. Couldn't shoot it to save my life so down the road it went. I love short barrels but it depends on the individual gun.

I wouldn’t buy a gun with anything shorter than 27” barrels, but then I’ve never shot a 25” gun. However, there can be some great deals on the shorter barreled guns. A gun with 26” barrels was a very common skeet gun in the 1980s and a lot of people hunted with them. If they work for you there’s nothing wrong with them. A positive article on 25” guns Short ones.

Ken

I have a CZ BRNO ZH102 skeet gun with 26" barrels. The barrels certainly impose no handicap on the gun's performance. Shoots as well and as easily as the Perazzi Mirage skeet gun with 27" barrels. The Perazzi may be more capable at international skeet but the BRNO is rather my choice for NSSA actually.
I can't imagine that 25" barrels would impose any hardship either. I get along fine with short barreled guns but we all know what an insensitive clot I am.

Have a day
Dr. WtS

Shoot whatever is available at the time. End result, the fellow who knows how to shoot will do a better job than the fellow who doesn't know how to shoot, regardless of the barrel length. "Learn how to shoot."

I think the only handicap in shooting a short (or long) barreled gun, if you are not shooting them regularly, is the time and effort needed to learn to shoot one. Short barrels are no more difficult to shoot than long barrels, if you shoot it enough to be used to it. Shoot just short barrels for some time and then jump to a heavy 30-32" barreled gun and that will feel ponderous.

If you can lift up your and and point at a bird in flight, you can learn to shoot short, light barreled guns. Nothing will be shorter or lighter than your hand pointing your index finger and that's not hard.

On occasion I shoot an Ithaca SKB 20 and Darne R10 20, both with 25" barrels, they are no "death rays" in my hands like Floyd's is in his hands, but more "Second Chance at Life Rays." I shoot them no worse nor better than other lengths for woodcock and quail. Gil

Years ago I inherited a LC Smith 16 gauge with 26 inch barrels that my grandsons used, with some success, on pheasant. The stock is shorter than I prefer and when I took it on a NM quail hunt I was remarkably unsuccessful which I attributed to the short barrels and stock. Some ~ 15 years later I took the gun on a dove hunt and found that if I kept my head on the stock it was great. I plan to carry it in KS this fall. Now my challenge is to remember the gun has double triggers. 😊

j l born

The only problem with the finger pointing analogy: no one has ever broken a clay nor killed a bird by pointing a finger. That makes it hard to establish whether a short finger is as deadly as a long one.

of course, but I think you get the point (pun noted).

If you like the gun and can shoot it well, it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about the barrel length. It only needs to have barrels at least 18.1" long in order for you to stay out of prison. Probably the greatest factor in whether one can shoot a shotgun well is gun fit. With practice, most can adapt to a gun that is too short or has too much drop. We can consciously tell ourselves to shoot under a bird if we know it patterns high. We can tell ourselves to let the target get further out if we know it has a tight choke. But the guns people refer to as "Death Rays" are typically guns that fit and point naturally. A decent shooter will be able to pick up such a gun and hit well with it even if he hasn't touched it in a while. Practice can sharpen our reflexes and refresh our technique and target acquisition. But it will never completely compensate for a gun that simply doesn't point naturally at the target without requiring contortions, distractions, or decision making.

Nothing wrong with a 25" barreled double. I shot a Winchester Model 23 Grande Canadian with 25 1/2" barrels in Argentina and Columbia through the eighties and ninties for dove, perdiz, and codorniz. This was not a light gun. It weighed about 7 pounds. So that may have helped slow down the swing, but I still shoot a short barreled gun reasonably well.

I had a AyA XXV for awhile, not my cup of tea.
But……it wasn’t as bad as the Citori I had with ridiculously short barrels. I think the were 21” or 24” from the factory. Can’t remember the model name….. maybe Special Field or sumpin??? The guy that bought it was as tickled as I was to sell it.

I normally shoot 1 oz. loads in every 12 gauge gun I own. The Churchill XXV mentioned previously would most likely be unbearable with 1 1/4 oz. loads, even though I have no intention of trying it. Sandlapper

I shoot pheasants and prairie grouses with 1.25 oz loads in a 6 lb Cashmore all the time. No big deal at all. If the gun fits well, the recoil is quite manageable.

As originally designed by Churchill, those guns weren't proofed for 1 1/4 oz loads. And having shot driven birds several times in Scotland (of the "normal" variety, not at those shoots which features a lot of birds 50 yards or more in the air), I've never seen anyone shoot loads that heavy at driven birds. They can be killed at 40 yards (which is sufficiently challenging for most mere mortals) with 1 1/8 or even 1 1/16 oz loads. But most "normal" driven birds aren't nearly that "tall". And if you can kill a pheasant flying away from you at 40 yards with 1 1/8 oz of 6 shot, you can certainly kill them as incomers with vitals more exposed with similar loads.

Of course all 1 1/4 oz loads are not equal. Well-known gun writers such as McIntosh, Hill, and Brister praised the old "Super Pigeon" load, which had a modest velocity of 1220 fps and patterned very well. McIntosh put it this way in his book "Shotguns and Shooting", chapter entitled "Gunning John Ringneck": "I wouldn't object too strongly if someone described a 12 gauge, 3 1/4 dram, 1 1/4 ounce charge of hard No.6 as the ultimate all-around pheasant load." I agree. I pattern tested those loads against Winchester's standard Super-X at 1330 fps as well as the then-new pheasant loads at speeds in excess of 1400 fps. The Super Pigeon (unfortunately not easy to find given American ammunition makers' tendency to try to sell both heavier and faster loads as their "premium" pheasant shells) delivered the most pellet strikes in the 30" circle. The Super-X was not far behind. The really fast stuff finished last--and also started with fewer pellets. If it's more killing power you want, that requires more penetration. Moving to 5 shot vs 6 shot is the best way to do that vs increasing velocity or shot charge. Noted ballistician Tom Roster also believes in loads at modest speeds vs what we're being offered these days as premium pheasant loads, both lead and steel. The price you pay for more velocity (and sometimes a heavier shot charge) is more recoil. None of the pheasants I've cleaned to date have been wearing Kevlar. What worked for those classic outdoor writers will still work today.





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I have hunted pheasant, quail, and chukar with several different barrel lengths, the longest being 30 inch SxS and the shortest being either my Citori 12 Upland Special or my 20 Upland Special, each having 25 inch barrels. I have killed more birds with this combination of Ciroris than any other guns I own. I flatly do not like very many of the 30 inch barreled models with the exception of the Dickinson 16 with 30 inch tubes. I can shoot it well, but the overall choice and the guns I always go back to are either of the Citoris. I will say that one one occasion I mistakenly filled my pockets with 1 and 3/8 ounce number 5's while shooting an infestation of pigeons for our landowner. That was a most unpleasant surprise. I havent done that again.

Reasonably available. https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/4012

What is hard to find is the Remington SP12 wad which was ideal for this load with Herco.

Last batch I used the CB1114, 26.5 grains of WSF and a true weighed 1 1/4 oz of #5 nickel plate. WSF selected for stack height in a AAHS. It still requires a bit of wad pressure.

They run 1230 +/- a little over the chrono.

Major benefit is the birds seldom run. Chasing running pheasants is for kids, and I'm no longer one.

Chasing running roosters is a job for field bred Springers if you were to ask me.

I guess I’m in the minority…I’ve never needed an 1 1/4 Oz load for anything with the exception of steel loads for waterfowl. I’ve rarely used 1 1/8 Oz loads. A vast majority of my birds are taken with 1 Oz. loads in 12, 16, 20 bores. I’ve never needed much more velocity over 1200 fps either, with most of the game loads I’m shoot going around 1150 fps. I rarely ever switch loads either. Chuks, pheasants, quail, huns, sharptails, forest grouse all get the same load. Later in a pheasant season, I may switch to #5’s, but not always.
I treat waterfowl differently, but if I’m shooting bismuth, my loads are at 1200 fps & 1 1/8 Oz. Never needed anything more than that.

A limit of sharptails taken with a 12 bore, 6 lb., Churchill XXV using 1 Oz of #6’s at 1150fps. Jumpy birds shot over solid points at 35 & 40 yrds.

Le Fusil, aka Dustin;

the photo of your beautiful gun as well as your straight on comments caused me to think more about what I am seeing in the very very low prices that such wonderful short barreled "bird" guns are being offered at in the United Kingdom at auctions and at dealers. Even after paying buyers premium and cost to ship to the USA these guns are selling at prices that are sometimes 40 percent less than what they are being offered at in the UK. Here are some examples from the upcoming Holt's Nov 2023 auction with 2 3/4 inch chamber proofs. The barrel wall dimensions for the Nov 2023 auction at Holts are not posted as of yet, so there may be some barrel issues that would cause one not to bid.

https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/as...++1759+&refno=++203346&saletype=

https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/as...++1401+&refno=++169315&saletype=

Not only are there very low price short barreled guns for sale but such bargains as this 28 inch barreled 2 3/4 inch chambered beauty from the 1960's.

https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/as...++1707+&refno=++209264&saletype=


Wow what bargains

If the replacement of my right shoulder joint in November will not allow it next year I will find myself continuing to migrate to smaller slower loads and probably smaller gauges for my hunting. I know I can kill pheasant with a 28 because I have done it. I have not yet graduated to the elite group of shooters that use a .410 for that task. I will limit my .410 usage to quail and dove.

Good looking gun, Dustin. I’m certain I could miss as many with a Greener XXV as I could with a longer barreled gun.

Perry, I ‘gotta ask-what pheasants are you shooting at? Come December, when the slews are frozen, and the roosters all have their doctorate in staying alive, nobody I know is using a 28. For the most part, nobody I know is even hunting at that time, but, the guys that are, including me, are using a 12.

Best,
Ted

Pen raised birds over pointing dogs at a game ranch last year. For wild birds, even over pointing dogs, I will stick to my 12, 16, or 20 gauge guns.

The link to the first auction is very interesting. My Churchill is also a “Viscount” grade gun. These guns were made in the 70’s for Churchill by Webley & Scott. My Churchill letter states that this grade is somewhat rare, not that many guns bearing the Viscount grade were made. At the time, they were offered as a lower cost, medium grade gun built to Churchills specifications. Mine is nicely finished inside and out, and it has been a serviceable hunting gun. It’s balanced exactly like the Utility and Regal grades XXV’s BLE’s I’ve owned in the past, but is probably a good 6 Oz.’s lighter than either of the previous guns. The Viscount is proofed at 2 3/4” @ 1 1/8 oz. It shoots 1 oz loads great. Not that there’s any need to, but I don’t think I’d want to touch off a full power 2 3/4” high brass load in it though😳.

The only one I have owned is one I bought two years ago. It is a 12 ga GH Parker No. 1 frame with 25" Damascus barrels, totally restored by a team of top level people. Weight is very light. Due to many reasons, I have yet to try it out but just shouldering the gun it feels like something I would have died to have when I was young and chasing grouse in Eastern Ky where the average shot was 10 to 15 yards. According to the Parker Story data, there were only three of this configuration made.

Perry, had both shoulders replaced - right in 2008, left in 2022. I have full range of motion and strength in each and can shoot any load. It took about 5 months for each shoulder. Trick is to do the physical therapy at home 1hr 30 min each day, 45 in the morning, 45 in afternoon. With the left shoulder work I even became ambidextrous (and for so many years practiced left hand jump shots and hook shoots - the physical therapy exercises were so much better).

I hope the right one goes as well as the left did. I had the left replaced June 19th this year and I have full range of motion restored in it. I am working now to rebuild the tissue that was lost when the original joint was taken out. It is hard to do with the right one giving me so much pain, but that one will be titanium by the evening of the 13th of November. I hope to be back in full swing by next season.

Best of luck with your recovery, Perry!

Back in the days when Georgia had bobwhites i shot a 20 gauge SKB 280 25 inch barrels a good bit and it was deadly. Bobby

Thanks Larry. I have been fighting this for two or three years now and finally said enough is enough. Now that the left one is done I only wish I had decided it much sooner. Already looking forward to next season.

Good luck, Perry. It seems like many of us have physical challenges that have developed that make it tougher to stay in the game.

Best,
Ted

Pretty amazing what the surgeons can do these days. And don't delay this stuff unless you want to be one-handed for the next 10 years. Just be prepared to do your part - surgeon does his but it won't work unless the patient does the exercises.

I followed the instructions of the surgeon and the physical therapist to the letter with the left one. They are still talking about my miraculously short recovery time on my left shoulder. The surgeon told me that mine was the most challenging he had done and it had recovered to a full range of motion in less time than any one he has ever done also. Keeping my fingers crossed for the right one on the 13th. At least its not on Friday!!! Thanks for the well wishes guys. I really appreciate it.

Or Labs. Or "versatile" pointing dogs. The best ones I've ever seen in that last category have been shorthairs and wirehairs.

How good is good when it comes to recovering wild roosters? The Iowa DNR conducted interviews with pheasant hunters. Their findings: "Parties with dogs lost only one bird in 10 downed compared to two to three out of 10 for those without dogs." So clearly, having any dog makes a difference.

But because I hate to lose downed birds, I've kept records of my dogs' performance going back to 1973. My conclusion is that if you have a dog that loses only 1 for every 20 birds recovered, you have a good pheasant dog. That's over their entire hunting career. If you eliminate their first season or two, when they're still learning, you should get some numbers that are much higher than that. My best one, over her entire career (which began at age 2--I got shorthair Heidi as a "started dog) successfully recovered 698 while losing just 26 cripples.) Looking at her peak seasons, from 1990-95, Heidi recovered 491 while losing only 12. That's a loss rate of 1 for every 41 recovered. I was fortunate enough to own 4 dogs (3 shorthairs and a pointer), all of them having at least 100 birds killed over them, that did better than my benchmark of 1 lost to every 20 recovered.

You can also reduce cripple losses if you shoot only birds that your flushing dog flushes or that your pointing dog points. I guided hunters on wild pheasants in Iowa for 4 years, and told my hunters it was OK to shoot at any rooster that flushed. And shooting at wild flushes reduces the likelihood that your dog will mark the fall.

Getting back to 25" barreled guns, shot a couple rounds of skeet with my Crudgington today. The original owner ordered it as it sits. The rib is standard rather than a copy of the famous Churchill XXV barrels with their unique rib. It weighs a bit over 5 lbs 6 oz. Straight grip, single non selective trigger. Ordered cylinder in both barrels. Automatic ejectors. The trigger pull is heavy for me, but my consulting gunsmith suggested that I shoot it that way before trying to have it worked on.

I was shooting 3/4 oz reloads of 8.5 shot. Had 3 or 4 trigger fumbles the first round. After second tries on those birds, I ended up with a 20. Didn't have any trigger issues the 2nd round and shot a 21. The gun obviously fits me, and as I get more used to the trigger, I expect it will work out well on local grouse and woodcock. It's too light to be a gun for serious skeet shooting, but hits on targets were mostly quite solid considering the light load. I don't really consider zero choke to be a handicap at skeet, nor at live birds shot at ranges similar to skeet.

I have a 24" 16 gauge DHE #1 frame Damascus Parker that I bought because it was cheap and beautiful. I haven't shot it, but I can't wait. It will be a great bird gun regardless of its cut barrels. I have flats of RST shells waiting.

My 20ga LC Smith field model surprised me when I measured the barrels to be only 25 1/2inches. The gun points well but is too light at under 5 1/2 lbs for a lot of skeet shooting but it is great to carry in the field for quail and pheasants. I do well for an occasional round of sporting clays with it as well. The chokes measured out to be .006 in the tight barrel and .018 in the left.

Slipped my mind, but forgot to mention another 25" gun I have; a William Ford 20 bar action sidelock, mfg. 1937, 15 1/4" LOP straight grip/ splinter, checkered butt, hidden third fastener, DT, made and proofed in Birmingham in 06/37 for 2 3/4" 1 ounce loads, has 25" barrels with Churchill rib choked IC/ Mod, fully engraved with Holland style deep scroll pattern, wgt. 5lbs., 10.5 ozs. A veritable wand that won't wear you by the end of a day afield. Probably built for a American customer.

That sounds like a wonderful gun to me. Can you post some photos of it?

Brent, I'd love to, but I have never been able to figure out how to do that on this website. It always ends up fouled up.

Send them to me, and I'll post them. I'd really like to see this gun. I have wanted to try a Churchill style of shotgun for a while now.

From Sandlapper. Pretty handsome gun, to say the least.












[img]https://i.imgur.com/CkiJAr3.jpg[/img]

25" 12ga Bernardelli 5lb 15 oz with an ounce of 6's(B&P High Pheasant). It is one of my favorite upland shotguns.

Beautiful gun!! Thanks for posting!!

That one is a keeper!

My brother has that exact same gun that I found for him at Ron Peterson's years ago. He has used it on a little of everything in the uplands with great success.